Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC

Mxsmanic wrote: brevity snip/groups adjusted
It would be better to quantify and isolate the ones you've already
mentioned, in order to make it possible to verify them.

It would be better, IMO, if you would get some air under your ass to
verify them, instead of relying on the experience of others, then
arguing, sans (that's French) basis.
-----

- gpsman

MxsClueless wrote:

Tell me _exactly_ what's wrong with the aircraft modeling.

For starters, the program doesn't really understand air
density. The program tries, but only in MSFS can one
maintain a semblance of controllability in a 172 at FL 250.
Plus, the mixture control does not react as it should at
even 7000. Ditto the ASI whilst upstairs.

I indeed do have every version since 1.0, and yes the
graphics on ver. 10 are outstanding and a decent frame rate
on my newish machine. But it's a totally phony experience
at face value. Flying IFR in mere marginal weather like
just 2-3 viz, thus not "hard IMC," can be a pleasure, and
only partly because VFR flight in poor viz can be a
distasteful chore. Set up that condition in MSFS and it's a
complete bore. Ditto as to punching through a thin (but VFR
ceiling) overcast under IFR, but do that in MSFS it's
objectively a bore with phony, all-white below.

I also like playing Walter Mitty now and then by flying big
air carrier jets too, but why anybody would simulate that by
engaging autopilot and letting FMS do the tricky stuff
(well, not really, if exp) for a thousand+ miles, hours on
end, I don't understand. And taking ATC instructions from
VATSIM people who likely know little of the real-life
nuances of ATC at least. What % of air carrier pilots
actually fly MSFS as an avocation? The tiny % who may do I
suggest have issues, and I'd rather not be a pax in seat 17A
whilst he/she is up front, thank you.

I also think MSFS is an excellent implementation, given the
programming challenge, and I tell my flying friends, even
"old duffs" like me but who are into computing and have the
machine for it, to try it for just some occasional fun and
see some nifty stuff it now does. And no more, without
actually saying so, since I know they won't get hooked.

Conversely, if flight exp via computer is all you want (and
moot, as all you can afford), fine. Chacun a son gout. But
an analogy is where I served in the U.S. Army, but own only
one handgun I fired just once, so I'm not a gun enthusiast
but respect such avocations of others. Chacun a son gout. I
even think there's too many weapons/capita here, but whether
the attendant consequences are tolerable is a legitimate
debate. I think on balance it is tolerable, but could I ever
start a silly, flaming debate by arguing the contrary,
especially never having really engaged in the sporting
activity! I also think I know know many technical things
about weapons, but hardly an expert, despite what I might
read further on the internet. If I have a technical
question, I can post to a gun enthusiast net group and hope
it's only a 4-post thread not flaming me should I be branded
naive or just an annoyance.

What I would not do is take pot shots at those who engage in
legitimate activities such as gun collecting, shooting
sports, or actual flying in a group of those who do, nor
would I claim shoot-em-up computer games is realistic and
sufficient for practical purposes. Nor would spend much of
my waking hours arrogantly posting on matters I really don't
know much about, especially where my actual identity is
known to the entire English-speaking internet world.

Why, from everything I've read about sociology and
psychiatry on the net, I think you have issues. Forgive me,
that stepped over the line! :-)

F--

You wonder why people ridicule you.





Mxsmanic wrote:
Nomen Nescio writes:


The rudder is a joke. It changes the direction that the nose is pointed,
but does not control flight path.


What does a real aircraft do?


It changes flight path, like he said, you dumb****.





Ground effect is either poorly modeled, or not modeled at all.


You don't sound very certain.


Spoken like someone who couldn't even identify a plane, much less fly one.





Actual aerodynamic effects of wind such as wind shear are either pooly
modeled, or not modeled at all.


See above.

See above.




"Turbulence" is pathetic. The plane just twitches around a bit. This
does not even come close to reality.


I didn't know there was a standard form of turbulence.

It's a computer. Other than maing the screen wobble what else can it
do? It's **** poor.





It would be better to quantify and isolate the ones you've already
mentioned, in order to make it possible to verify them.


Then why ask the question?

Mxsmanic wrote:

Yes, yes. I'm getting tired of hearing about this. That's not a flaw
in the simulation, anyway.


Let me jump into it.

First about background --- I am not GA pilot yet, I plan to start
lessons in a fall. I however a small time hang glider pilot (about 25
hours, 83 flights), currently live in Chicago where the weather is not
great for hang gliding in winter. While hang glider is very different
from GA aircraft, it has some things in common --- being stupid can
kill you.

What you are getting annoyed is the following (and here I am
extrapolating from what I know in different flying community) --- there
is invisible hierarchy and you do not accept it. The hierarchy is for a
reason though --- people are not equal, some know more then others,
some have more experience.

Why is this important? Listening to people with experience and learning
from them can help you in a sticky situation. However to assign weight
to what people are saying it is very important to know if they know
what they are talking about.

You however insist on you right to claim experience without having any,
and write about flying from one airport to another without ever
mentioning it was just a simulation. There is extremely small (once in
a million or less), but nonzero chance that some day you give advice
based on you experience which can kill a student who will take it
seriously. I know your background at this point, so I will not take
your advice seriously, but somebody without knowing your background
might. This is why I believe it is important that you know your place
in invisible hierarchy of pilots (I know mine, it is fairly low at this
point but will get higher after I learn to fly these noisy oil and gaz
burning contraptions), mention your background when discussing you
"flights" and avoid giving advice.

While everyone has right to live the life he chooses, it is important
that we use appropriate words lest we stop understanding each other
and words loose their meaning and we are back to this tower of Babel
situation again. Your "flights" are not flights, although they can be
very enjoyable, the distinction is very important. You are trying to
redefine meaning of words, make them fuzzier in a community where
precision of communications means saving lives and surprised at
hostility you are getting. I wonder why?

While sims can be pretty detailed, they are by definition are different
from the real thing, because people who create them are just humans and
their knowledge is limited. Because knowledge of every particular
person is limited, it is possible that no one knows all details how
different they are from the real thing. You may not find out until it
is too late. The difference is often found in a very spectacular
fashion. I do not think anyone who flied any kind of Space Shuttle
simulator had failure similar to what happened to Columbia. Every year
many pilots find there is a difference between their mental model of
airplane ("I still have 1 hour of fuel") and real thing. You expect
your mental model to be perfect. Well, as I often heard when I still
was scientist "In theory there is no difference between theory and
practice. In practice thee is." One difference that real flying (yes,
hang glider too) teaches you that you have a lot of limitations.
Apparently simming does not, because you are not getting scared
enough. In real flying smug feeling is a sure sign that humility
lesson is coming, as one smart guy said. I wonder how is this aspect of
flying is taken care of in MSFS.

I do not have enough time in GA aircrafts (or simulators for that
matter) to say how similar is simulation to real thing --- latest
"Flight training" magazine seems to suggests it might be somewhat
useful. I am absolutely confident that simulation is absolutely useless
for training to fly hang gliders, just like it would be useless for
learning to ride a bicycle. Never mind feeling forces that give you
important feedback, noise of rushing air or squeaking of the
structure that gives you important clues about speed or how close you
are to stall. How would you talk about glider feeling "mushed" to
someone who never experienced it? He might just say "You are not clear
on this point so you do not know what happens and it is not in MSFS
anyway so I might forget about it". Never mind adrenaline when you
make a stupid mistake and find out that problems always happen in
clusters and pile up much faster then you can think about them with no
option to pause, save, think and restore later. What is more important
--- no simulation can prepare you for the feeling when you circle 5
feet away from a young falcon who found first thermal in his life.

Newps wrote in
:

Then why ask the question?

Because he is a troll.............

When will we learn not to answer his question is the 64K question of the
year.

Allen

Mxsmanic wrote: groups adjusted
gpsman writes:

Spurious conclusion. Those who agree with you are honest, those who
don't are not?

No. The honest ones admit it; the dishonest or disingenuous ones
argue about it endlessly.

Spurious conclusion. Your conclusion is identical to that you made
previously: those who agree with you are correct and honest; those who
disagree know you are correct, but are liars. All determined while you
lack any basis to determine who might be right or wrong.

If you were as smart as you seem to believe you might on your own
correctly assume a cheap game simulator approaches realism, but that's
all it does, or can do.

Your incessant crossposting to irrelevant groups is an obvious
indicator that you are a k00k... and the time you spend here arguing
with those who know of which they speak might be better spent
accumulating the income that would allow you to get an hour of air
under your ass so that you might form your conclusions via your own
experience.
-----

- gpsman

"john smith" wrote in message
...
Mxsmanic wrote:

Viperdoc writes:

For example, the Extra 300 model is extremely poor. The acceleration is
slower than the real aircraft, and the roll rate is much, much less than
the full scale plane.


Perhaps so. I presume the Extra 300 is a "fun" plane, not a serious
one, like many of the others.


It does't get much more serious than an Extra 300 when it comes to general
aviation aircraft!


I would like to see him tell Patty Wagstaff that her airplane is just a
"fun" plane and not a "serious" plane. :-)

gpsman writes:

It would be better, IMO, if you would get some air under your ass to
verify them, instead of relying on the experience of others, then
arguing, sans (that's French) basis.

My own experience would not necessarily help, as it would just as
subjective and limited as the experience of others. Rather like the
old story about the blind men and the elephant.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

gpsman writes:

Your conclusion is identical to that you made
previously: those who agree with you are correct and honest; those who
disagree know you are correct, but are liars.

That was not my conclusion.

Pilots I know to be honest have agreed that MSFS is useful for
training and a reasonable simulation of flight. Pilots I know to be
insecure blowhards have insisted that it is neither. I have noted the
correlation.

If you were as smart as you seem to believe you might on your own
correctly assume a cheap game simulator approaches realism, but that's
all it does, or can do.

All simulators merely approach realism in a strict sense, but if the
part they simulate is the part you want or need, that's all that
matters.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Mxsmanic,

If that post doesn't prove you're an arrogant troll, I don't know what
it takes to people here still believing you just seek knowledge.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)