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Report Leaving Assigned Altitude?



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 7th 04, 04:47 PM
John Clonts
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Default Report Leaving Assigned Altitude?

1) "N7NZ, cleared direct BMQ cruise 7000". Do I report subsequent descents?
E.g. "leaving 7000 descending 5000"? Then later "leaving 5000 descending
2000"?

2) Its VMC and I'm IFR to Temple, level at 5000. At 25 miles out I report
Temple in sight. "N7NZ cleared visual approach to Temple, remain this
frequency til you're closer in". At this point I may descend at will,
right? When I do decide to descend, do I report leaving 5000?

3) I'm level at 7000. "N7NZ, descend 3000 pilots discretion". Do I report
my descent? Can I level off at an intermediate altitude, and if so, do I
eventually report leaving that altitude?E.g. "leaving 7000 descending 5000"?
Then later "leaving 5000 descending 3000"?

Please read the above "do I" as "am I required to". In my (small) IFR
experience to this point I have made the reports in many/all the above
cases, so I'm now trying to confirm which of them are unnecessary...

Thanks!
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ


  #2  
Old March 7th 04, 05:29 PM
Dave Butler
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Default

John Clonts wrote:
1) "N7NZ, cleared direct BMQ cruise 7000". Do I report subsequent descents?
E.g. "leaving 7000 descending 5000"? Then later "leaving 5000 descending
2000"?


Report leaving 7000, assuming that was an assigned altitude. 5000 was never
assigned, so there's no need to report leaving it.


2) Its VMC and I'm IFR to Temple, level at 5000. At 25 miles out I report
Temple in sight. "N7NZ cleared visual approach to Temple, remain this
frequency til you're closer in". At this point I may descend at will,
right? When I do decide to descend, do I report leaving 5000?


Assuming 5000 was an assigned altitude, yes.


3) I'm level at 7000. "N7NZ, descend 3000 pilots discretion". Do I report
my descent? Can I level off at an intermediate altitude, and if so, do I
eventually report leaving that altitude?E.g. "leaving 7000 descending 5000"?
Then later "leaving 5000 descending 3000"?


Report leaving 7000, assuming it was an assigned altitude. You have discretion
to 3000, so you may stop at an intermediate altitude. No need to report leaving
altitudes that weren't assigned.


Please read the above "do I" as "am I required to". In my (small) IFR
experience to this point I have made the reports in many/all the above
cases, so I'm now trying to confirm which of them are unnecessary...


  #3  
Old March 7th 04, 05:29 PM
Richard Kaplan
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Default


"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

In answering these questions, consider these definintions from the
Pilot/Controller Glossary in the AIM:

PILOT'S DISCRETION - When used in conjunction with altitude assignments,
means that ATC has offered the pilot the option of starting climb or descent
whenever he wishes and conducting the climb or descent at any rate he
wishes. He may temporarily level off at any intermediate altitude. However,
once he has vacated an altitude, he may not return to that altitude.

CRUISE - Used in an ATC clearance to authorize a pilot to conduct flight at
any altitude from the minimum IFR altitude up to and including the altitude
specified in the clearance. The pilot may level off at any intermediate
altitude within this block of airspace. Climb/descent within the block is to
be made at the discretion of the pilot. However, once the pilot starts
descent and verbally reports leaving an altitude in the block, he may not
return to that altitude without additional ATC clearance. Further, it is
approval for the pilot to proceed to and make an approach at destination
airport ...

CLEARED (Type Of) APPROACH - ATC authorization for an aircraft to execute a
specific instrument approach procedure to an airport; e.g., "Cleared ILS
Runway Three Six Approach."


1) "N7NZ, cleared direct BMQ cruise 7000". Do I report subsequent

descents?

You may choose to report subsequent descent but you are not required to do
so; if you give such a report, however, then you may not climb back again
without obtaining an additional ATC clearance.


2) Its VMC and I'm IFR to Temple, level at 5000. At 25 miles out I report
Temple in sight. "N7NZ cleared visual approach to Temple, remain this
frequency til you're closer in". At this point I may descend at will,
right? When I do decide to descend, do I report leaving 5000?


You may descend when you choose to do so; there is no need for you to report
leaving 5000.


3) I'm level at 7000. "N7NZ, descend 3000 pilots discretion". Do I

report
my descent? Can I level off at an intermediate altitude, and if so, do I
eventually report leaving that altitude?E.g. "leaving 7000 descending

5000"?
Then later "leaving 5000 descending 3000"?


Yes, you may level off at an intermediate altitude. No, you are not
required to make a report if you choose to do so.


Please read the above "do I" as "am I required to". In my (small) IFR
experience to this point I have made the reports in many/all the above
cases, so I'm now trying to confirm which of them are unnecessary...



As above, you are not required to make any of these reports. Generally it
is good practice to make such reports anyway, unless the frequeny is busy,
in which case the controller may not appreciate the extra reports -- that is
a judgment call you can make in each situation. Note that in the case of a
cruise clearance, providing such an extra report may actually result in
limiting your altitude options as noted above.

As a related but interesting issue, have you ever received a CRUISE
clearance? If so, where did you get it and did you request it or was it
assigned? I have obtained all sorts of interesting clearances from ATC,
but whenever I request a CRUISE clearance the reply I usually get from ATC
implies they never heard of it or at least that they never use this -- sort
of like filing "OTP" for an IFR altitude although I have had some greater
success there.

--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com


  #4  
Old March 7th 04, 06:09 PM
Richard Kaplan
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Default




"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...

Assuming 5000 was an assigned altitude, yes.


"Cleared for the visual" supercedes any prior altitude assignment. No
report is required when you begin your descent.

Report leaving 7000, assuming it was an assigned altitude.


All you must do is acknowledge the clearance to descend at pilot discretion
to 3000. After that, there is no requirement to report when you choose to
use that discretion to leave 7000.



--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com


  #5  
Old March 7th 04, 06:35 PM
Ray Andraka
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Default

Visual approach is an approach clearance, which means you are also cleared to
descend. No need to report leaving unless explicitly directed to do so by ATC.

Dave Butler wrote:

2) Its VMC and I'm IFR to Temple, level at 5000. At 25 miles out I report
Temple in sight. "N7NZ cleared visual approach to Temple, remain this
frequency til you're closer in". At this point I may descend at will,
right? When I do decide to descend, do I report leaving 5000?


Assuming 5000 was an assigned altitude, yes.


--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759


  #6  
Old March 7th 04, 06:38 PM
John Clonts
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Default


"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message
s.com...

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

[Q and A snipped, thanks for your input!]


As a related but interesting issue, have you ever received a CRUISE
clearance? If so, where did you get it and did you request it or was it
assigned? I have obtained all sorts of interesting clearances from ATC,
but whenever I request a CRUISE clearance the reply I usually get from ATC
implies they never heard of it or at least that they never use this --

sort
of like filing "OTP" for an IFR altitude although I have had some greater
success there.


Hello Richard,

After having read that they were so rare, I got "offerred" one on my SECOND
ifr flight after I got my IR last year!

I had filed from KTPL (Temple) to 44TE (a grass strip about 80 nm away,
elevation 900). As I recall the weather was around 4000 scattered. When I
was about 30 miles from 44TE at 6000, it went something like this:

CTR: "N7NZ, let me know if you need a cruise clearance"
N7NZ: "Roger, N7NZ". wracks brain for implications

Few minutes later:
N7NZ: "Center, N7NZ request cruise clearance to 44TE now"
CTR: "Roger, N7NZ is cleared to 44TE, cruise 4000. Cancel this frequency or
on the ground via Flight Service"

I descended into VMC and cancelled on the frequency.

Though it wasn't a factor that day, I believe that in worse weather I would
have then descended to the MIA (which is about 2500 in that vicinity), and
if not visual by then, just climb, reestablish contact with center if
necessary, and work on "plan B" which would involve an instrument approach
to a nearby airport.

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ


  #7  
Old March 7th 04, 07:43 PM
Richard Kaplan
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Default



--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com
"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...
----------------
AIM 5-3-3. Additional Reports

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without a
specific ATC request:

1. At all times.

(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a

newly
assigned altitude or flight level.
...
----------------

Richard, please explain why the citation above does not apply (assuming

the
O.P.'s starting altitudes were "assigned").

The AIM doesn't say (for example) "...unless the altitude assignment is
superceded by a clearance for a visual approach".

Thanks

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.
[sorry for top-posting]


Richard Kaplan wrote:
"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...


Assuming 5000 was an assigned altitude, yes.



"Cleared for the visual" supercedes any prior altitude assignment. No
report is required when you begin your descent.


Report leaving 7000, assuming it was an assigned altitude.



All you must do is acknowledge the clearance to descend at pilot

discretion
to 3000. After that, there is no requirement to report when you choose

to
use that discretion to leave 7000.




  #8  
Old March 7th 04, 07:52 PM
Richard Kaplan
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Default


"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...

(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a

newly
assigned altitude or flight level.


I agree this is an interesting question and raises an area of some
ambiguity.

However, my interpretation in all the cases discussed in this thread is that
an intermediate altitude is not an assigned altitude and an approach
clearance certainly is not an assigned altitude.

In other words, I interpret the above AIM section to require the pilot to
provide a readbak of any altitude change. That readback might be "N102KY
out of 5000 for 3000" or it might be "N102KY out of 5000 for 3000 pilot
discretion" or it might be "N102KY will cruise 3000" -- any of these in my
opinion satisfy the AIM requirement.

The AIM doesn't say (for example) "...unless the altitude assignment is
superceded by a clearance for a visual approach".


Take the somewhat more extreme example of a DME step-down approach. Surely
you will agree that there is no need to report to ATC each time you proceed
to a new step-down altitude. Why not? Beause these step-down altitudes
were not "assigned" by ATC; you were instead "cleared for the approach"
which is approval to descend as published on the approach plate without any
further discussion with ATC. "Cleared for the visual" is just another
extension of this underlying theme -- you may descend at will upon being
"Cleared for the visual" as long as you do not violate another FAA rule in
the process such as minimum altitude requirements.



--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com


  #9  
Old March 7th 04, 07:52 PM
Dave Butler
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Posts: n/a
Default

----------------
AIM 5-3-3. Additional Reports

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without a
specific ATC request:

1. At all times.

(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a newly
assigned altitude or flight level.
....
----------------

Richard, please explain why the citation above does not apply (assuming the
O.P.'s starting altitudes were "assigned").

The AIM doesn't say (for example) "...unless the altitude assignment is
superceded by a clearance for a visual approach".

Thanks

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.
[sorry for top-posting]


Richard Kaplan wrote:
"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...


Assuming 5000 was an assigned altitude, yes.



"Cleared for the visual" supercedes any prior altitude assignment. No
report is required when you begin your descent.


Report leaving 7000, assuming it was an assigned altitude.



All you must do is acknowledge the clearance to descend at pilot discretion
to 3000. After that, there is no requirement to report when you choose to
use that discretion to leave 7000.


  #10  
Old March 7th 04, 08:34 PM
Matthew S. Whiting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Dave Butler wrote:
----------------
AIM 5-3-3. Additional Reports

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without
a specific ATC request:

1. At all times.

(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a
newly assigned altitude or flight level.
...
----------------

Richard, please explain why the citation above does not apply (assuming
the O.P.'s starting altitudes were "assigned").

The AIM doesn't say (for example) "...unless the altitude assignment is
superceded by a clearance for a visual approach".


It doesn't have to say that as it would be redundant. There is no way
to fly the visual approach clearance without descending! So, once you
are cleared for the visual, you are cleared to descend and turn as
required to execute the approach.


Matt

 




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