Running dry?

Greg,

How many run their tank(s) dry as part of their fuel
management strategy?

I do it if necessary, which is on long legs.

what's
the down side to this strategy?


Scaring passengers. You can only do it with passengers that have the
appropriate mindset towards flying and are well briefed.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Doug,

There is
always a small chance that an engine will not start if you allow it to
actually be fuel starved.


When you do it right, the engine will not stop, so it won't need to
start again. It will stumble. Briefly. At most.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

I don't run tanks dry (but I only have two). I will use a little from
each tank to ensure that I can, and to keep gas from going overboard (if
the tanks are too full this can happen). Then I will switch tanks to
keep the plane balanced, usually every hour or every half hour or so.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

(http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182044-1.html), he not only recommends
running tanks dry but puts forth a powerful argument that it's a
responsible fuel management strategy.

That is possibly the dumbest thing I've ever read in these newsgroups.

I have run a tank dry precisely once, early in my flying days, while flying
a rental Cherokee 180 that was burning gas a LOT faster than the 140s I was
used to flying. It got my attention REAL fast, and I've done my level best
to avoid doing it ever since. (There's something about the engine burbling
and the prop slowing down that I just don't like, for some reason...)

IMHO, proper fuel management means never even coming *close* to running a
tank dry, let alone doing it intentionally.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:42:31 +0000, Jay Honeck wrote:

(http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182044-1.html), he not only recommends
running tanks dry but puts forth a powerful argument that it's a
responsible fuel management strategy.

That is possibly the dumbest thing I've ever read in these newsgroups.

Did you read the article(s) or shoot the messenger?


IMHO, proper fuel management means never even coming *close* to running a
tank dry, let alone doing it intentionally.

Well, that is the other side of the coin, isn't it?


Greg

That is possibly the dumbest thing I've ever read in these newsgroups.

Did you read the article(s) or shoot the messenger?

Don't construe my denigration of the idea as being an attack on the
intelligence of the poster. He was, after all, merely quoting an article.

I've posted lots of things here that I disagreed with wholeheartedly, just
to add some spice and learn something in the process.

To illustrate how stupid I think this idea truly is, if today had been April
1st, I would have 100% assumed that the post was an April Fool's Day joke.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

I must admit, I certainly would not expect something like a 30-second
delay.
I have run the left and right outboard tanks on a Cherokee Six dry, and
because I had a fuel totalizer I knew within a few minutes when the tank
would be dry. Engine restart just required the electric Aux fuel pump,
lower the nose slightly and restart occured in less than 5 seconds. The
first time though, it was a long five seconds. BTW I did this with a much
more experienced ATP/CFI/CFII with me. One of the reasons to empty the
outboard tanks, it that they have more affect on roll than the inboard
tanks, which are not run dry.

Dan

"Greg Copeland" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:19:04 +0000, Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

WE had one of our Lances crash at RDU one foggy morning that I believe
was due to the pilot running one tank dry while on the ILS inbound from
the outer marker. He hit the tops of the trees, spun around and down
one and landed flat in a densely wooded area to the north of the field.
The resulting fire destroyed the aircraft pretty completely.
Fortunately, the pilot walked away from it with just a superficial cut
on his forehead.



Let me be clear here, I am not talking about accidentally running a tank
dry. In fact, if done as Deakin and Cook prescribe, it probably would of
prevented the accident you mention.

He may have tried to restart but just didn't have enough time before he
sank into the trees. Clean, a Lance will come down at 1100 FPM; it's
gonna be considerably faster with the gear hanging out like it would
after intercepting the glideslope.

http://www8.landings.com/cgi-bin/nph...at&pos =71003

Again, this sounds like an accident caused by poor planning. This is not
what I'm talking about. Poor fuel management is poor fuel management.
Let's not confuse the two.

Now, to get back to the first question: how often does one run a tank
dry intentionally? If I was in a Cherokee Six with four tanks and had
passengers, hopefully never. The downside of this is that if you left
just a couple of estimated gallons in each tank, you have lost a
significant amount of useful fuel.

Deakin specifically addresses the issue with passengers on board. In his
opinion, proper passenger briefing, a timer, and calm behavior on part of
the pilot is key.


If I were trying to stretch a flight and even then only if I were alone,
I might consider running one dry. But I have to tell you: running a
tank dry in a Cherokee results in te longest 30 seconds of your life. I
ran a C-210 tank dry once and almost the second I hit the boost after
switching the fuel selector I got a restart. Not so in the Cherokee...
it takes a while. A loooong while. Kind of scarey.

If you have not done so, please read his article and see what you think. I
must say, my impression of your position is one of fear not one of reason.
Am I wrong?

I must admit, I certainly would not expect something like a 30-second
delay. I would expect something more in line of a couple of seconds at
most. Perhaps it was a could of seconds but felt like 30?

Greg

I never do it, but should probably make it an occasional test to check
gauge indication.

I came close to running out once many years ago, and it made a
permanent impression on my flying mindset - never, ever, take a chance
on fuel. As a result, I never run tanks anywhere near empty.

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:07:14 -0500, Greg Copeland wrote:


I would like to do this just one time for each of the two main tanks in
the Bonanza V35 I fly if for no other reason than to validate the actual
duration and total gallons. However, I have yet to take the time or
have the courage to do so.

I'd like to know exactly how much fuel is useable, too, but think I'd probably
run a tank low, pump out the remaining gas, then either high idle or taxi
around until it sputtered, switch over, then fill the empty tank. Seems waaay
too much hassle to not just believe the manufacturer. If you choose to do this
when flying, please don't have either me or your insurance agent as a
passenger.


As far as disadvantages, I am concerned about what might happen with the
sediment in these aging fuel bladders as the fuel empties. But, I
have read articles that dispel this myth so perhaps this is a non-issue.

In my day job, I operate a 2005 vehicle, and see the gunk that comes out of
fuel filters regularly. I can hardly imagine what could lurk in the +/- 30
year old tanks on aircraft we trust to keep us out of the trees.

Enjoy your experiment

Jim Ricks

Greg Copeland wrote:
Again, this sounds like an accident caused by poor planning. This is not
what I'm talking about. Poor fuel management is poor fuel management.
Let's not confuse the two.


My bad. I absolutely agree it was caused by poor fuel management. I also
concede your point that the article is about *intentionally* running the tank
dry to squeeze every drop.


Deakin specifically addresses the issue with passengers on board. In his
opinion, proper passenger briefing, a timer, and calm behavior on part of
the pilot is key.


I don't care how calm the pilot is: the average passenger isn't enough in love
with aviation to tolerate this. You can brief all you want. Some people fear
spiders no matter how beneficial you tell them they might be. It's the same way
when the engine quits, particularly when you have no control over the matter.
Ever been driving in the mountains going a little too fast around the curves?
The driver doesn't mind... he's got his hands on the wheel and is in control.
It's a whole 'nother thing for the passengers.



If I were trying to stretch a flight and even then only if I were alone,
I might consider running one dry. But I have to tell you: running a
tank dry in a Cherokee results in te longest 30 seconds of your life. I
ran a C-210 tank dry once and almost the second I hit the boost after
switching the fuel selector I got a restart. Not so in the Cherokee...
it takes a while. A loooong while. Kind of scarey.

If you have not done so, please read his article and see what you think. I
must say, my impression of your position is one of fear not one of reason.
Am I wrong?


Yes. I've run tanks dry many times in both high and low wing airplanes. It
doesn't bother me especially except in rough IFR when my hands are already busy.


I must admit, I certainly would not expect something like a 30-second
delay. I would expect something more in line of a couple of seconds at
most. Perhaps it was a could of seconds but felt like 30?


No, perhaps it was 30 seconds. Go run a tank dry in a PA-32R and tell me how
long it takes to restart. If you want a 2 second restart, fly a Cessna single.

Come back and question me again after you've actually done this.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE