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What is a ground loop?



 
 
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  #21  
Old July 23rd 03, 02:29 AM
john smith
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Mike wrote:
I've read the term ground loop in a lot of articles and accident reports but
what exactly is a ground loop?


Go to AvWeb.
Under COLUMNS, select the index for John Deakins columns.
Look for the article on Edwards AFB Flight Testing.
Deakins gave instruction in a T-6 Texan (the original) to test pilot
candidates.
At the end of the lesson, he describes how he set them up for a ground
loop.
  #22  
Old July 23rd 03, 02:52 AM
john price
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Somebody answered in here somewhere that the inside wing
would try to hit the ground because the outside wing would
be generating more lift... Normally, the centrifical force tends
to tip the plane to the outside of the loop... I've done 3 so far and
have always pushed the stick to the inside of the loop to try
to keep the outside tip from dragging... So far the technique
has saved the wings....

John Price
CFII/AGI/IGI
http://home.att.net/~jm.price




"Maule Driver" wrote in message
. com...
"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:g03Ta.12456$Je.2196@fed1read04...
also when the "loop" starts, it is normally started by a gust of wind

on
the
tail, or a lifting of a wing, if the feet are not happy, but behind the
movement to corral the tail, the tail will come on around, the wing on

the
"outside" of the turn will move faster, create more lift, thus lifting

and
possibly dragging the inside wing tip on the ground, plus the added side
loads on the gear main tend to cause one to fold..


Does the inside or outside wing tend to hit the ground once a ground loop

is
underway? I've only done them in gliders (on purpose and by accident
off-field) but that's the result of dragging the (inside) wingtip. My

sense
is that the outside wing wants to drag the ground after the groundloop

gets
going. But I just don't know.

I'd rather land in some cross wind, then none at all, at least then

you'll
know where the trouble could be lurking... and forget tail wind

landings..
not good at all..


I gotta admit, I've never wished for any xwind!

You know what you have when it is a tail wind on both ends of the runway?

A
thermal at mid field.. plan to land long, get past the tailwind, through

the
thermal and into the headwind.. for a better controlled landing.


I suspect that only a glider guider would be savvy enough to recognize

this
condition in time to respond!




  #23  
Old July 23rd 03, 03:23 AM
G.R. Patterson III
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john price wrote:

I've done 3 so far .....


If I'da known that, I would *never* have let you try that landing during my
BFR!

George Patterson
The optimist feels that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The
pessimist is afraid that he's correct.
James Branch Cavel
  #24  
Old July 23rd 03, 11:09 AM
Cub Driver
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I like the rear engine analogy. Difference between the Beetle and the
Corvair seems to have been that the Beetle didn't suffer from 'ground
loops' very frequently. The Corvair was looking for them. My father owned


I live in New Hampshire, where it not only snows, but often rains on
top of the snow. I followed two gal skiers in a VW one time on the
road down from the mountains, and they began to oscillate,
overcorrect, and finally end up in the snowbank on the wrong side of
the road. I dug them out with the shovel I always carried in the front
trunk of my VW. Then, going around an extended traffic circle in
Alton, I too went off the road that same night. A plow truck pulled me
out.

3 or 4 of them. In #3, we did the classic Corvair 'ground loop' plus some.
I'm not sure to this day how many times we went around but I do know we
ended up upside down on the convertible roof. Unsafe at any speed indeed!


Driving home from Vermont in a friend's Corvair, me driving, I could
feel the front end move out from under me about every five minutes. I
was passed three times, and in every case the car that passed me wound
up in an accident a few miles farther along. In that case the Corvair
got home and they didn't, because of that early-warning system of
"black ice" on the road.

The Vdub bus seems to be immune too. Drove 3 of them in western PA snows
and never had them try to swap ends. Passed a lot of stuck people too. But
of course, they were one of the most lethal vehicles on the road. They
weren't in a lot of accidents, but you stood a good chance of buying it if
when they were.


Gosh, I had one of those, too. You're right; it never seemed to suffer
from understeer, perhaps because the passenger and the driver were
sitting on top of the front axle! As I recall the shoulder belt didn't
have an inertia reel, and if it was secured you couldn't reach the
instrument panel. So I cut mine off.

My wife and I drove to California and back, sitting out there on the
front axle, with our daughter in a basket between the two seats.
Yikes.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub
  #25  
Old July 23rd 03, 11:14 AM
Cub Driver
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In the Olden Days, when aircraft didn't have brakes and you just landed
in any convenient field, groundlooping was how they stopped. In an
emergency, it may be a better choice than hitting something hard and/or
expensive.


This is still standard procedure on the ice runway at Alton Bay, New
Hampshire, supposedly the only American airport that is a seaplane
base in the summer and a land airport in the winter.

I'm told that it is also standard procedure to **** on your tires to
freeze them to the ice, chocks not being very useful in that
circumstance. I haven;t tried this myself; first I was too timid, then
the bay didn't freeze, and most recently I couldn't get out of Hampton
for nearly three months because of snow, ice, wind, and mud.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub
  #26  
Old July 23rd 03, 03:17 PM
Ryan Ferguson
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Be careful, though. In some low-legged airplanes lowering the aileron just puts
the airfoil even closer to the ground. In my Pitts Special (assuming no
crosswind correction) it was best to keep the stick neutral if the rear end got
really loose. Never did ground loop it, although god knows I must have come
close a few times.

-Ryan
CFI/MEI/CFI-H

john price wrote:

Somebody answered in here somewhere that the inside wing
would try to hit the ground because the outside wing would
be generating more lift... Normally, the centrifical force tends
to tip the plane to the outside of the loop... I've done 3 so far and
have always pushed the stick to the inside of the loop to try
to keep the outside tip from dragging... So far the technique
has saved the wings....

John Price
CFII/AGI/IGI
http://home.att.net/~jm.price

"Maule Driver" wrote in message
. com...
"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:g03Ta.12456$Je.2196@fed1read04...
also when the "loop" starts, it is normally started by a gust of wind

on
the
tail, or a lifting of a wing, if the feet are not happy, but behind the
movement to corral the tail, the tail will come on around, the wing on

the
"outside" of the turn will move faster, create more lift, thus lifting

and
possibly dragging the inside wing tip on the ground, plus the added side
loads on the gear main tend to cause one to fold..


Does the inside or outside wing tend to hit the ground once a ground loop

is
underway? I've only done them in gliders (on purpose and by accident
off-field) but that's the result of dragging the (inside) wingtip. My

sense
is that the outside wing wants to drag the ground after the groundloop

gets
going. But I just don't know.

I'd rather land in some cross wind, then none at all, at least then

you'll
know where the trouble could be lurking... and forget tail wind

landings..
not good at all..


I gotta admit, I've never wished for any xwind!

You know what you have when it is a tail wind on both ends of the runway?

A
thermal at mid field.. plan to land long, get past the tailwind, through

the
thermal and into the headwind.. for a better controlled landing.


I suspect that only a glider guider would be savvy enough to recognize

this
condition in time to respond!



  #27  
Old July 23rd 03, 04:38 PM
john smith
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Posts: n/a
Default

Cub Driver wrote:
I'm told that it is also standard procedure to **** on your tires to
freeze them to the ice, chocks not being very useful in that
circumstance. I haven;t tried this myself; first I was too timid, then
the bay didn't freeze, and most recently I couldn't get out of Hampton
for nearly three months because of snow, ice, wind, and mud.


Hmmm... brings a whole new meaning to the saying "old pilots and bold
pilots". ;-)
  #28  
Old July 23rd 03, 06:22 PM
Maule Driver
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Is there a connection between VDubs, Cubs, and Maules?

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...
snippety snip
Driving home from Vermont in a friend's Corvair, me driving, I could
feel the front end move out from under me about every five minutes. I
was passed three times, and in every case the car that passed me wound
up in an accident a few miles farther along. In that case the Corvair
got home and they didn't, because of that early-warning system of
"black ice" on the road.

ahhhh, that's what it was, an early warning system. A quick swat to back of
the head would have sufficed.

Gosh, I had one of those, too. You're right; it never seemed to suffer
from understeer, perhaps because the passenger and the driver were
sitting on top of the front axle! As I recall the shoulder belt didn't
have an inertia reel, and if it was secured you couldn't reach the
instrument panel. So I cut mine off.


I kind of figured it was non-inertial so that you would be held firmly in
place during a head-on coup de grace. Should have cut it off too.

What did you do for heat? Not much there when new. Less in a couple of
years of salt corrosion. Auxiliary gas heater was great if you added it.
Almost died in mine due to lack of heat but that's another long story.

My wife and I drove to California and back, sitting out there on the
front axle, with our daughter in a basket between the two seats.
Yikes.

I ripped the seats, installed speakers, curtains, and a big bean bag chair.
I otherwise take the 5th.

We were all young and foolish once.... but sure had fun!



  #29  
Old July 23rd 03, 06:24 PM
Maule Driver
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Default

.... and in a glider, stuff the stick forward and stay on the brakes to avoid
snapping the tail.

"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:_dkTa.12831$Je.318@fed1read04...
the outside wing will hit... with our Pawnee, the inside wing can drag..

and
then as you "high side" (motorcycle talk) the outside wing can contact the
ground.. or if you've ever rolled a jeep when you get it side ways..




  #30  
Old July 23rd 03, 10:25 PM
David
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Default

In article , john smith
writes

A ground loop is what happens when a taildragger pilot isn't fast enough
on the rudder pedals to keep the tail from passing him/her while going
down the runway.
Because the center of gravity is behind the main landing gear on a
taildragger, the tail of the airplane wants to swing around to the
front.
The center of gravity is forward of the main gear on a tricycle gear
airplane, so the nose wants to stay out in front.


It seems to me that this explanation, though common, is oversimplified.
What we are talking about is stability. When an aircraft (or a car for
that matter) turns on the ground a sideways force is developed on the
wheels. There is also a force generated by the sideways acceleration at
the cg and, also, in the case of the aircraft, a side aerodynamic force.
If the combined reaction of the first two is behind the cg than the yaw
motion on the ground will be unstable and may or may not be able to be
controlled by the pilot with the rudder.

It is not that the main wheels are in front of the cg so much as that
the side force developed by the tail wheel is very small (even smaller
if it is a castoring tail wheel) and too much of the side ground force
will be developed by the 'main' wheels.

You only need to be fast on the rudder because the position is unstable.
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