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Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?



 
 
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  #71  
Old April 5th 19, 05:20 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

On Sunday, March 31, 2019 at 10:04:06 PM UTC-5, Michael N. wrote:
I'm looking for a glider for cross country in the $25k range.

I'd like to get a flapped 15 meter, and have been doing a lot of searching and reading on the groups and have kind of narrowed my decision down to an ASW20 or LS3a

I have about 200 hours in gliders all glass, but never anything with flaps, however I also owned and have several hundred hours in a Mooney M20C so have good experience in complex aircraft that require good in flight planning for various aspects of flight.

I was also considering the following, and will list some of my reasons for weeding them out of my choice list.

Ventus B: Great performance, but my understanding from reading (no actual experience) is that they are not forgiving or maybe a better way of putting it, is they require full time attention which can be fatiguing on long flights.

DG 200 or 202, good aircraft but you have to pay annual fees just to buy parts?

Mini Nimbus: also good aircraft, just not up to the same performance level as an ASW20

That kind of leaves the ASW20 or LS3 in this price range and category. Unless I am missing something.

So which would you have and why?
I am leaning towards an ASW20 purchase, but am finding some very well equipped LS3a's in the same price range as a moderately equipped ASW20.

Assuming similar clamshell style trailers and self rigging gear, which is the better buy or which would you have and why?

Also, anyone knowing of an ASW20 or LS3 for sale not already on Wings and Wheels, I'd like to hear about it.

Thanks, I know this topic has been brought up before, but I am in the final stages of preparing for a purchase before the 2019 season gets into full swing and would like to get some final advice before pulling the trigger on this purchase.


Michael,

I happen to own the LS3a (9P) that Dick Johnson did his flight test review on. I had a little over 200 hours of glider time and 0 hours of power aircraft time when I purchased it. After flying this ship for 250+ hours, I don't think the Johnson report was accurate regarding the L/D, however, I don't have the technical data to support my claim. It is my first flapped glider. It took me about 50 hours to get used to the flaps. I never felt like I was "behind" the glider. It has been a joy to fly and I have had a handful of 300km and a few 500km flights in it. It has been the perfect vehicle to teach me how to read the weather conditions on course, which may be much more important at this phase of your development than wringing out the polar of a high performance ship.

In my opinion, find a ship with a good gel coat and a good trailer and spend the next 3 or 4 seasons learning how to soar. Don't get bogged down with relatively small performance advantages, just get a ship and fly as much as possible. Go thru the flapped glider learning curve with a $25K ship and then move on to higher performance.

Paul

  #72  
Old April 5th 19, 08:07 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Stephen Struthers
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Posts: 21
Default Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

At 01:47 05 April 2019, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

This thread makes me want to go find a LS


A member of my club has just emaiied the members offering this


https://photos.google.com/share/AF1Q...H4lsU7jozxg4EX
2pwmz0-V51u0lVMJioqaz6DmBZvTtLK_IA?
key=Z2RRN29MYkljQTV6TmtvbndNMzI0YjVqTmJmQndB

£30 000 UK pounds Its a lovely machine

  #73  
Old April 5th 19, 08:27 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Stephen Struthers
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Posts: 21
Default Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

At 07:07 05 April 2019, Stephen Struthers wrote:
At 01:47 05 April 2019, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

This thread makes me want to go find a LS


Sorry link on previous post didn't work !!

A member of my club has just emaiied the members offering this

£30 000 UK pounds Its a lovely machine

https://photos.app.goo.gl/j44feKhifZVMb38Q8

  #74  
Old April 5th 19, 09:51 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathon May
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Posts: 82
Default Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

At 07:27 05 April 2019, Stephen Struthers wrote:
At 07:07 05 April 2019, Stephen Struthers wrote:
At 01:47 05 April 2019, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

This thread makes me want to go find a LS


Sorry link on previous post didn't work !!

A member of my club has just emaiied the members offering this

£30 000 UK pounds Its a lovely machine

https://photos.app.goo.gl/j44feKhifZVMb38Q8


AT £30,000 IS IS A VERY CHEAP GLIDER.


  #75  
Old April 5th 19, 11:25 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathon May
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Posts: 82
Default Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

At 07:27 05 April 2019, Stephen Struthers wrote:
At 07:07 05 April 2019, Stephen Struthers wrote:
At 01:47 05 April 2019, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

This thread makes me want to go find a LS


Sorry link on previous post didn't work !!

A member of my club has just emaiied the members offering this

£30 000 UK pounds Its a lovely machine

https://photos.app.goo.gl/j44feKhifZVMb38Q8


This is a LS 6a


  #76  
Old April 5th 19, 11:40 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Michael N.
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Posts: 21
Default Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

So I have never imported a glider from overseas, although I understand it is relatively commonly done.
Any insight on how difficult this process is and in general the cost involved?
Obviously I understand I have to get the current conversion rate. But what about shipping fees, customs clearance, FAA registration and inspection requirements, etc. I don't want to go too far off topic here, but some general insight would be helpful.
I had thought about the import option and was thinking at my price range it would not be worth the trouble. However maybe some general insight in the process would be useful.
Wow, again so much great information here. Thanks all
  #77  
Old April 5th 19, 11:43 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Michael N.
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Posts: 21
Default Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

P.S. while nice looking, it is at roughly $38.5k U.S. dollars.
Out of my price range at this time.
Thanks
  #78  
Old April 5th 19, 11:47 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
krasw
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Posts: 668
Default Airfoils...

On Friday, April 5, 2019 at 5:41:00 AM UTC+3, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Wed, 3 Apr 2019 07:20:42 -0700 (PDT), Steve Leonard
wrote:

On Wednesday, April 3, 2019 at 1:53:19 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
ASW 20 was ahead of it's time and in reality belongs to same generation as Ventus/LS6 (except that final bit of wing loading). ... All Wortmann FX170-profiled gliders are older generation performance-wise. If it rains or you get bugs on leading edge, you fall out of sky like an anvil.


But, the 20 uses the older (and maybe better?) 62K153/131 family. Maybe that is why it was ahead of its time? Because it used an older airfoil section. Like its big brothers, the ASW 12 and ASW 17.



Interesiting side note:

Luc Boermans recently told me that ALL his airfoils are based upon the
FX 62K-131 of the ASW-20.


And I read somewhere that when Lemke designed LS6 profile the upper surface was more or less taken straight from FX62. Of course the lower surface of modern profiles is more refined, in 70' you could not even dream about stretching laminar flow to almost full chord length.
  #79  
Old April 5th 19, 03:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Posts: 2,124
Default Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 8:07:42 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 11:46:26 AM UTC-4, Papa3 wrote:

Here's the math for an ASW-20:

- Moderately crazed ASW-20 in otherwise fair shape. $25K
- Full refinish at retail north of $25K (being generous here)
- Total cost $50K (forget about all the other stuff - instruments, trailer, etc.)

Now, go look at the classifieds. Several nice to very nice ASW-20s for mid $30K.


So a fair price for a "Moderately crazed ASW-20 in otherwise fair shape" would be $8K. Invest $25-30K in repair and you'd get a good glider for $33-38K. Buyer deserves some compensation for the hassle, risk and delay of refurbishment.

People who're setting unreasonably high prices for their poor condition gliders are hurting themselves, and hurting the sport by making it harder for young people to get into the sport.

I suggest that people who want to get into the sport start offering a reasonable price for trashed gliders $5-8K. Sellers (or the executors of their estates) will eventually come to their senses.


Here is the reality from somebody who has been doing this for more than 2 decades.
It is almost impossible to buy a glider at a price the seller will accept, refinish it commercially, and sell it at a favorable price. If it was that easy, everybody would be doing it, including the refinish people.
My experience is that a refinish adds somewhere around half the commercial cost to the salable value of the glider.
A recent example.
Club member buys a Cirrus 75 with older Komet trailer for $12000.
Over 2 years he refinished it in my shop. It required almost exactly 400 hours, mostly his labor. Materials(polyester finish) cost about $1000.
He now has a very nice glider that may get $22K or so on the market.

Someone wanting to enter the market that does not have the resources to pay for a "nice"(defined as not expecting to need a refinish anytime soon) glider, is going to have to settle for an older glider needing clean up and care and fly it for a few years while saving up the dough for a nicer glider.

UH
  #80  
Old April 5th 19, 04:01 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Posts: 962
Default Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

On Friday, April 5, 2019 at 10:31:48 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 8:07:42 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 11:46:26 AM UTC-4, Papa3 wrote:

Here's the math for an ASW-20:

- Moderately crazed ASW-20 in otherwise fair shape. $25K
- Full refinish at retail north of $25K (being generous here)
- Total cost $50K (forget about all the other stuff - instruments, trailer, etc.)

Now, go look at the classifieds. Several nice to very nice ASW-20s for mid $30K.


So a fair price for a "Moderately crazed ASW-20 in otherwise fair shape" would be $8K. Invest $25-30K in repair and you'd get a good glider for $33-38K. Buyer deserves some compensation for the hassle, risk and delay of refurbishment.

People who're setting unreasonably high prices for their poor condition gliders are hurting themselves, and hurting the sport by making it harder for young people to get into the sport.

I suggest that people who want to get into the sport start offering a reasonable price for trashed gliders $5-8K. Sellers (or the executors of their estates) will eventually come to their senses.


Here is the reality from somebody who has been doing this for more than 2 decades.
It is almost impossible to buy a glider at a price the seller will accept, refinish it commercially, and sell it at a favorable price. If it was that easy, everybody would be doing it, including the refinish people.
My experience is that a refinish adds somewhere around half the commercial cost to the salable value of the glider.
A recent example.
Club member buys a Cirrus 75 with older Komet trailer for $12000.
Over 2 years he refinished it in my shop. It required almost exactly 400 hours, mostly his labor. Materials(polyester finish) cost about $1000.
He now has a very nice glider that may get $22K or so on the market.

Someone wanting to enter the market that does not have the resources to pay for a "nice"(defined as not expecting to need a refinish anytime soon) glider, is going to have to settle for an older glider needing clean up and care and fly it for a few years while saving up the dough for a nicer glider.

 




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