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Buying a Glider



 
 
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  #31  
Old May 7th 19, 03:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Buying a Glider

" So you’re saying that all experimental gliders need program letters? "

No, I didn't say that. I was just pointing out one of the obstacles of useing an experimental glider in a club environment.

----------

I just pulled up a copy of a current "old style" ops limitations.

Paragraph 1 says "no person may operate this aircraft for other than the purpose for which the special purpose airworthiness certificate was issued and shall be operated in compliance with applicable FAA general operating and flight rules. "

What's the special purpose airworthiness certificate issued for,
Exhibition and Racing.

Not meandering,training,time building or sight seeing.

Exhibition and racing uses are further defined by the FAA. Club use does not fit.


I guess there's no problem with a club owning one. It's the pilot that is at risk, and in a club environment most pilots have no idea. They probably never even read the ops limitations.

Perhaps we should start a new thread if we are going to continue this communication, rather than drift from the OP,original questions.
  #32  
Old May 7th 19, 03:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Buying a Glider

On Tuesday, May 7, 2019 at 10:00:51 AM UTC-4, wrote:
" So you’re saying that all experimental gliders need program letters? "

No, I didn't say that. I was just pointing out one of the obstacles of useing an experimental glider in a club environment.

----------

I just pulled up a copy of a current "old style" ops limitations.

Paragraph 1 says "no person may operate this aircraft for other than the purpose for which the special purpose airworthiness certificate was issued and shall be operated in compliance with applicable FAA general operating and flight rules. "

What's the special purpose airworthiness certificate issued for,
Exhibition and Racing.

Not meandering,training,time building or sight seeing.

Exhibition and racing uses are further defined by the FAA. Club use does not fit.


I guess there's no problem with a club owning one. It's the pilot that is at risk, and in a club environment most pilots have no idea. They probably never even read the ops limitations.

Perhaps we should start a new thread if we are going to continue this communication, rather than drift from the OP,original questions.


If you don't ask for clarification from the FAA it will not be a problem. Club members flying around in circles are exhibiting their skills and training for racing, whether they know it or not.
  #33  
Old May 7th 19, 03:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Buying a Glider

Pretty typical reply, but it's not correct.
Look up the description of Exhibition in the context of special/experiment- racing AW certs with the FAA.
Ignorance is not a good excuse.
  #34  
Old May 7th 19, 03:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Buying a Glider

It's not a problem, until it's a problem. It's kind of like driving over the speed limit.
  #35  
Old May 8th 19, 02:36 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Larry Ruggiero
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Default Buying a Glider

Not to pick nits but most DARs will include in a ship's operating limitations boilerplate that-- with exception of the builder (who receives a repairman's certificate limited to repairs, inspections and mods that specific aircraft only)-- annual condition inspections, repairs or modifications are to be performed by someone holding at least an A&P certificate (standard certificated aircraft require an A&P with Inspection Authorization for annuals and major repairs or mods). The FAA does allow pilot/owners to do some common maintenance items, like lubrication, brake servicing, or tire changes. In case someone else hasn't already pointed it out, the FAR's place responsibility for aircraft airworthiness on the owner, not the maintainer, so keep up with researching service bulletins and airworthiness directives-- your A&P will thank you come annual time.

Larry Ruggiero, pilot/A&P
  #36  
Old May 8th 19, 03:30 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charles Longley
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Default Buying a Glider

You’re a pretty opinionated Sky God aren’t you? Reality is it doesn’t matter what you think.
  #37  
Old May 8th 19, 05:04 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bob Kuykendall
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Default Buying a Glider

On Tuesday, May 7, 2019 at 6:37:00 PM UTC-7, Larry Ruggiero wrote:
Not to pick nits but most DARs will include in a ship's operating limitations boilerplate that-- with exception of the builder (who receives a repairman's certificate limited to repairs, inspections and mods that specific aircraft only)-- annual condition inspections, repairs or modifications are to be performed by someone holding at least an A&P certificate (standard certificated aircraft require an A&P with Inspection Authorization for annuals and major repairs or mods)...


For amateur-built experimental aircraft, the annual condition inspection must indeed be signed off by the holder of the Repairman Certificate or by an A&P mechanic. But the official FAA guidance for inspectors and DARs is to issue operating limitations with no restrictions on who can do maintenance, modifications, or repairs. Anybody can work on an amateur-built experimental.

The only unique privilege conferred by the Repairman Certificate is the dubious privilege of signing off on the condition inspection. And I say dubious because I think it is better to bring in an impartial (or at least less partial) set of eyes to inspect work in which you have an emotional investment that might cloud your judgement.

--Bob K, EAA Technical Counselor
  #38  
Old May 8th 19, 12:29 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Buying a Glider

You’re a pretty opinionated Sky God aren’t you? Reality is it doesn’t matter what you think.

I dont intend to come off that way.
I just try to help spur some thought, possibly reduce some mistakes and identify risk.

Your right, my opinion doesn't matter to you and probably to most, and I'm not always right. Clubs wont make a change because of what I write. But maybe there's a few individuals that will read this thread, that had no idea that as PIC in the club experimental glider, they were supposed to be flying IAW the limitations set in place by the special aiworthness certificate. Maybe some students would like to know or decide that this isn't the ship I should fly. Are the instructors teaching this responsibility to them prior to turning them loose. Even after acquiring their private, they still often dont hear what the experimental - exhibition/racing really means.

FAA order 8130 section 10 gives guidance on what exhibition and racing categories are about. The limitations page is part of the airworthiness certificate and restricts the planes use to those who are flying within the rules set up for that aircraft.

The PIC is the one responsible. If that person is unaware of the situation he has no way to manage his own risk assessment.

When the pot boils dry, the only opinion that would really matter would be the judge or jury, if there were an issue that drives it that far.

In the context of this thread, I just wanted to give the possible buyer the heads up about this aspect of an experimental ship and what it possibly means to him for future use.

All is well.

Joe



  #39  
Old May 8th 19, 01:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Buying a Glider

On Wednesday, May 8, 2019 at 7:29:28 AM UTC-4, wrote:
You’re a pretty opinionated Sky God aren’t you? Reality is it doesn’t matter what you think.

I dont intend to come off that way.
I just try to help spur some thought, possibly reduce some mistakes and identify risk.

Your right, my opinion doesn't matter to you and probably to most, and I'm not always right. Clubs wont make a change because of what I write. But maybe there's a few individuals that will read this thread, that had no idea that as PIC in the club experimental glider, they were supposed to be flying IAW the limitations set in place by the special aiworthness certificate. Maybe some students would like to know or decide that this isn't the ship I should fly. Are the instructors teaching this responsibility to them prior to turning them loose. Even after acquiring their private, they still often dont hear what the experimental - exhibition/racing really means.

FAA order 8130 section 10 gives guidance on what exhibition and racing categories are about. The limitations page is part of the airworthiness certificate and restricts the planes use to those who are flying within the rules set up for that aircraft.

The PIC is the one responsible. If that person is unaware of the situation he has no way to manage his own risk assessment.

When the pot boils dry, the only opinion that would really matter would be the judge or jury, if there were an issue that drives it that far.

In the context of this thread, I just wanted to give the possible buyer the heads up about this aspect of an experimental ship and what it possibly means to him for future use.

All is well.

Joe


Std Ops limitations provide for proficiency flying. Program letters commonly include proficiency flights, SSA badge flying, and contests.
This would not preclude club members from flying these ships.
The practical constraints are a 300 mile radius from the specified home base and a requirement to list where the glider will be operated from when not at the home base.
UH
  #40  
Old May 8th 19, 06:09 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Frank Whiteley
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Default Buying a Glider

On Tuesday, May 7, 2019 at 8:00:51 AM UTC-6, wrote:
" So you’re saying that all experimental gliders need program letters? "

No, I didn't say that. I was just pointing out one of the obstacles of useing an experimental glider in a club environment.

----------

I just pulled up a copy of a current "old style" ops limitations.

Paragraph 1 says "no person may operate this aircraft for other than the purpose for which the special purpose airworthiness certificate was issued and shall be operated in compliance with applicable FAA general operating and flight rules. "

What's the special purpose airworthiness certificate issued for,
Exhibition and Racing.

Not meandering,training,time building or sight seeing.

Exhibition and racing uses are further defined by the FAA. Club use does not fit.


I guess there's no problem with a club owning one. It's the pilot that is at risk, and in a club environment most pilots have no idea. They probably never even read the ops limitations.

Perhaps we should start a new thread if we are going to continue this communication, rather than drift from the OP,original questions.


Should say something about proficiency flights.

Frank Whiteley
 




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