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Nothing good about Ethanol



 
 
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  #1  
Old May 31st 06, 11:11 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning
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Default Nothing good about Ethanol

Conflict with aircraft fuel systems and Ethanol are many:

http://www.pmawwacs.org/downloads/go...ce_ethanol.pdf

California formulation is only about 5.7 percent Ethanol, so that
Cherokee 235 may get away with it for awhile, especially if it flies
to other airports and refuels with avgas cutting the percentage even
more.

The bottom line is that at the moment producing Ethanol from corn
wastes more energy than it makes according to experts. The EPA has
ruled California no longer has to use it. But will be some time
before stocks no longer contain it. That's what I read anyway.

  #2  
Old May 31st 06, 11:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning
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Default Nothing good about Ethanol

The heat of combution of ethanol is about one third of gasoline, also.

An ADM Corporation scam?

  #3  
Old May 31st 06, 11:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning
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Default Nothing good about Ethanol


"180pilot" wrote:

The bottom line is that at the moment producing Ethanol from corn
wastes more energy than it makes according to experts.



I ain't got a dog in this fight, but any time I read a sentence like that,
my bs meter starts to twitch.

What experts? Employed by whom? What are their qualifications? What
peer-reviewed studies did they publish?


--
Dan
C172RG at BFM


  #4  
Old June 1st 06, 12:30 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning
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Default Nothing good about Ethanol


On 31-May-2006, "Dan Luke" wrote:

The bottom line is that at the moment producing Ethanol from corn
wastes more energy than it makes according to experts.



I ain't got a dog in this fight, but any time I read a sentence like that,
my bs meter starts to twitch.

What experts? Employed by whom? What are their qualifications? What
peer-reviewed studies did they publish?




Excellent questions. I note that "experts" also dispute the danger of
global warning, and other "experts" claim that species evolution is a myth.
Yet other "experts" (hired by the tobacco industry, but of course that's
just a coincidence) were unable to find any linkage between smoking and lung
cancer. At one point many "experts" could prove that powered flight was
impossible.

Truth is, if you want to use the Internet as a source of information, a
finely tuned BS meter is an absolute necessity!


-Elliott Drucker
  #5  
Old June 1st 06, 12:35 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning
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Default Nothing good about Ethanol

On Wed, 31 May 2006 17:51:14 -0500, "Dan Luke"
wrote:


"180pilot" wrote:

The bottom line is that at the moment producing Ethanol from corn
wastes more energy than it makes according to experts.



I ain't got a dog in this fight, but any time I read a sentence like that,
my bs meter starts to twitch.

What experts? Employed by whom? What are their qualifications? What
peer-reviewed studies did they publish?


Well, you can do a search and find a good many studies by legit?
universities and corporations. Unfortunately the results for "Net
energy Gain" for alcohol production vary from a negative 50% to an
outlandish positive of several hundred percent (by a university). IOW
if you hunt you will be able to find a study that will support just
about any position.

Some of these studies are commissioned and come with criteria. You
some times really have to dig to find said criteria and often it's not
available. Without knowing the criteria under which the study was
undertaken leaves the study pretty much meaningless to me. That is
unless you place complete blind faith in both who ever did the study
and who ever commissioned it.

"Department of Energy" should be a good starting point for the feds
and states although they have a way of cataloging docs that could be
considered camouflage.sigh

The validity of Wipi is often questioned, but it's a good starting
place to find the referenced studies and then hunt for the studies.
The good articles will have references back to specific studies.

I've been following/studying alternative energy sources for some time
and have had to devote far more time digging than I would have liked,
or planed. I've also worked with some researchers with both passive
and active solar as well although it was some time back.

As near as I can discover the "general consensus" is a small "net
energy gain" when producing alcohol. This took into account using the
byproducts as well and came up with about a 50% net energy gain. That
is not a lot and the real price of alcohol when subsidies for both
growing the corn and producing the alcohol is around $3.50 a gallon.

"They" are going to be building a large Ethyl Alcohol plant about 30
miles from here in an industrial park at Alma Michigan. Probably
close to the site where one failed back in the 70s energy crisis.

"Currently" there is no large scale, "wide spread", economical
alternative energy source, but there are several areas where large
farms of wind generators are proving to be viable. They are running
into environmental concerns as far as locations particularly here in
Michigan. We have few areas within the state that would work well,
but we have several "off shore" that would work very well. However
the "shore dwellers" in both Wisconsin and Michigan are basically
saying "Not in the middle of our tourist industry!". Nor are these
farms cheap with a price tag some times passing several billion. (That
was with a "B".)

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
  #6  
Old June 1st 06, 02:11 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning
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Default Nothing good about Ethanol

The ethanol is blended with the gasoline right at the tanker truck.
Shake'n'bake with the tanker truck on the road does further mixing, so the
gasoline "stocks" are devoid of ethanol contamination right now. THe
problem is to get suppliers back to giving us straight gasoline.

Jim



The EPA has
ruled California no longer has to use it. But will be some time
before stocks no longer contain it. That's what I read anyway.



  #7  
Old June 1st 06, 11:55 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning
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Default Nothing good about Ethanol

Most of the stations in the Cincinnati metro area are now selling gasoline
with 5-6% ethanol. My regular supplier didn't sell gas with ethanol until
recently. Unfortunately I didn't check it often enough and ended up putting
50 gallons of 5% ethanol in my Skylane. When I discovered this, I went
through a great deal of trouble to immediately de-fuel the plane, and refill
with 100LL. Needless to say I was quite annoyed by this.

I have done the water/jar test on most stations in the area and the ONLY
ones not containing ethanol were EXXON and the fuel sold at the Kroger fuel
center.

Looks like you need to test for ethanol each and every time you buy autogas
for your plane.

Guy




"180pilot" wrote in message
...
Conflict with aircraft fuel systems and Ethanol are many:


http://www.pmawwacs.org/downloads/go...ce_ethanol.pdf

California formulation is only about 5.7 percent Ethanol, so that
Cherokee 235 may get away with it for awhile, especially if it flies
to other airports and refuels with avgas cutting the percentage even
more.

The bottom line is that at the moment producing Ethanol from corn
wastes more energy than it makes according to experts. The EPA has
ruled California no longer has to use it. But will be some time
before stocks no longer contain it. That's what I read anyway.



  #8  
Old June 1st 06, 12:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning
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Default Nothing good about Ethanol




The bottom line is that at the moment producing Ethanol from corn
wastes more energy than it makes according to experts.




Well, use some rational thinking... We grow corn to make alcohol...

What does the tractor that plowed and planted the field burn? diesel
mostly

What do the fertilizer and pesticides put on the field come from?
petroleum base

What does the combine that harvests the field burn? gas or diesel

What does the truck that takes the corn to the local elevator burn?
diesel or gas

What does the train that moves the corn to market burn? diesel

What does the electric motor(s) at the alcohol plant get the current
from - and ditto the lights, air conditioners, furnaces, etc? (natural
gas mostly)

What do the employees at the alcohol plant burn to get there for work
each day? gas mostly

Where does the heat to distill the mash come from? natural gas

What does the truck burn to take the alcohol to the gasoline terminal?
diesel

************************************************** ***********************************************
Where the oil company cheerfully puts 5% of that 70 cents a gallon
alcohol at their cost into the gasoline and charges you three bucks or
so for each gallon of alcohol they sell you - a vastly bigger profit
margin than they get on the gasoline... Plus, the alcohol decreases
your gas mileage so you have to buy fuel more often... Jeez, if you
are an oil executive on a pay plus bonus salary, what's not to like
??????
************************************************** **************************************************

Anyway, those of you who favor alcohol explain to me how burning
alcohol reduces oil imports...

denny

  #9  
Old June 1st 06, 12:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning
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Default Nothing good about Ethanol

RST Engineering wrote:
The ethanol is blended with the gasoline right at the tanker truck.


I heard an interview on a financial show a few weeks back that had an
oil company executive telling a completely different story. He
explained that plants and storage facilities needed certain parts and
seals changed to switch from MTBE laced gas to a gas / alcohol blend.

Could this be a regional thing?
  #10  
Old June 1st 06, 12:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning
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Default Nothing good about Ethanol

I know of no Homo sapiens trying to conserve himself into prosperity.
The yankee dollar reigns supreme. You pilots putting auto gas in your
planes need to think again, carefully.

 




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