equipment list?

A real annual is when the AI actual looks at all the details
and the owner wants it done right, not just cheap.



"Tim" wrote in message
...
| See inline replies.
|
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| An equipment list is required and lists all components
and
| accessories and parts installed, except for the airframe
| itself.
|
| Where is the reg for this? I have not found it yet. Is
there a
| specified format?
|
| A really well done equipment list will include the
| model and serial number for items and not just the name,
| weight and station [location on the airplane]. This
makes
| researching and compliance with ADs much easier.
| The engine, propeller, alternator, magnetos, battery,
| radios, wheels, tires, brakes, seat belts should be
listed.
|
| But older airplanes did not have a modern POH and the
| owners' handbook would also sometime include a separate
AFM
| and the factory original W&B data should have had the
| equipment list and the FAA should have a copy of that in
the
| registry in OKC. You can then survey the airplane [good
| time to do a real annual]
|
| As opposed to an "unreal annual?" I am not sure what you
mean by this.
|
| and verify that each item is
| really installed, update to include serial numbers and
| current AD status and add any items that have been added
and
| delete items that are no longer installed.
|
| I am most likely going to base mine on the log book
entries and an
| equipment list from a plane of the same year and model.
|
| thanks, tim
|
|
|
|
|
| "Tim" wrote in message
| ...
| | Mark Hansen wrote:
| | On 03/01/07 21:44, Tim wrote:
| |
| | What is required as far as a formal equipment list
for
| part 91
| | operations? In reading 91.205 and listening to one
| instructor I know, I
| | cannot reconcile what he says with the FARs. He
states
| that an aircraft
| | must have an equipment list. I cannot find an
equipment
| list for the
| | plane I fly regularly. I see partial entries for
| "equipment list" on
| | W&B forms in the plane, but no formal equipment list
| showing all the
| | arms/moments and weights of all the items in the
| aircraft. I have seen
| | examples of this for various aircraft in the POH.
| |
| | I fly an older AA5A and the POH is not even close to
| what I would call a
| | useful document for the airplane. It is very brief,
| contains errors and
| | contains self-contradictory information. I am not
| surprised to seem to
| | be missing a required document.
| |
| | Is this a required document? If so, how can I
recreate
| it or obtain a
| | new one? I was considering recreating from an
account
| of the logs.
| |
| | The manufacturer is no longer in business.
| |
| | Any idea where I would find "equipment list"
| requirements in the regs?
| |
| | thanks,
| | tim
| |
| |
| | There was a recent article by Mike Busch at AVWeb on
| this topic. AVWeb
| | members can see the article he
| |
| |
http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/194428-1.html
| |
| | If you're not a member already, join! It's free and
| there's lots of great
| | stuff there.
| |
| |
| | After posting this I found the article. Thanks.
|
|

FAR 125 requires actual weighing the aircraft on a schedule.
New aircraft are assumed to be accurate, but not all
airplanes are weighed.


"Travis Marlatte" wrote in
message ...
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| ...
| An equipment list is required and lists all components
and
| accessories and parts installed, except for the airframe
| itself. A really well done equipment list will include
the
|
| As a general statement, I don't think so. A great idea? I
agree. Required by
| a reg? Where?
|
| An equipment list may be required for the certification
but I don't see any
| reg that says that you have to keep it up to date. All
that is required is
| updated W&B. The FAA publication that Mike Busch quotes is
somewhat
| ambiguous but it is only advisory, anyway.
|
| Having said all that, I did download Mike's spreadsheet
and I plan to create
| an equipment list - just for fun. However, I'm quite sure
that I won't be
| able to match the current W&B which will leave a perpetual
puzzle until I
| pay to have the plane re-weighed.
| -------------------------------
| Travis
| Lake N3094P
| PWK
|
|

All my annuals are real annuals. I might almost be insulted by this
comment.



Jim Macklin wrote:
A real annual is when the AI actual looks at all the details
and the owner wants it done right, not just cheap.



"Tim" wrote in message
...
| See inline replies.
|
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| An equipment list is required and lists all components
and
| accessories and parts installed, except for the airframe
| itself.
|
| Where is the reg for this? I have not found it yet. Is
there a
| specified format?
|
| A really well done equipment list will include the
| model and serial number for items and not just the name,
| weight and station [location on the airplane]. This
makes
| researching and compliance with ADs much easier.
| The engine, propeller, alternator, magnetos, battery,
| radios, wheels, tires, brakes, seat belts should be
listed.
|
| But older airplanes did not have a modern POH and the
| owners' handbook would also sometime include a separate
AFM
| and the factory original W&B data should have had the
| equipment list and the FAA should have a copy of that in
the
| registry in OKC. You can then survey the airplane [good
| time to do a real annual]
|
| As opposed to an "unreal annual?" I am not sure what you
mean by this.
|
| and verify that each item is
| really installed, update to include serial numbers and
| current AD status and add any items that have been added
and
| delete items that are no longer installed.
|
| I am most likely going to base mine on the log book
entries and an
| equipment list from a plane of the same year and model.
|
| thanks, tim
|
|
|
|
|
| "Tim" wrote in message
| ...
| | Mark Hansen wrote:
| | On 03/01/07 21:44, Tim wrote:
| |
| | What is required as far as a formal equipment list
for
| part 91
| | operations? In reading 91.205 and listening to one
| instructor I know, I
| | cannot reconcile what he says with the FARs. He
states
| that an aircraft
| | must have an equipment list. I cannot find an
equipment
| list for the
| | plane I fly regularly. I see partial entries for
| "equipment list" on
| | W&B forms in the plane, but no formal equipment list
| showing all the
| | arms/moments and weights of all the items in the
| aircraft. I have seen
| | examples of this for various aircraft in the POH.
| |
| | I fly an older AA5A and the POH is not even close to
| what I would call a
| | useful document for the airplane. It is very brief,
| contains errors and
| | contains self-contradictory information. I am not
| surprised to seem to
| | be missing a required document.
| |
| | Is this a required document? If so, how can I
recreate
| it or obtain a
| | new one? I was considering recreating from an
account
| of the logs.
| |
| | The manufacturer is no longer in business.
| |
| | Any idea where I would find "equipment list"
| requirements in the regs?
| |
| | thanks,
| | tim
| |
| |
| | There was a recent article by Mike Busch at AVWeb on
| this topic. AVWeb
| | members can see the article he
| |
| |
http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/194428-1.html
| |
| | If you're not a member already, join! It's free and
| there's lots of great
| | stuff there.
| |
| |
| | After posting this I found the article. Thanks.
|
|

Thanks - I should know better than to use a reference that is
abbreviated. All the part 91 stuff is no problem - it is the part 23 I
need to double check.

Jim Macklin wrote:
Look in part 23 and 91.
§ 23.1589 Loading information.
The following loading information must be furnished:

(a) The weight and location of each item of equipment that
can be easily removed, relocated, or replaced and that is
installed when the airplane was weighed under the
requirement of §23.25.

(b) Appropriate loading instructions for each possible
loading condition between the maximum and minimum weights
established under §23.25, to facilitate the center of
gravity remaining within the limits established under
§23.23.

[Doc. No. 4080, 29 FR 17955, Dec. 18, 1964, as amended by
Amdt. 23-45, 58 FR 42167, Aug. 6, 1993; Amdt. 23-50, 61 FR
5195, Feb. 9, 1996]


§ 91.417 Maintenance records.
(a) Except for work performed in accordance with §§91.411
and 91.413, each registered owner or operator shall keep the
following records for the periods specified in paragraph (b)
of this section:

(1) Records of the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and
alteration and records of the 100-hour, annual, progressive,
and other required or approved inspections, as appropriate,
for each aircraft (including the airframe) and each engine,
propeller, rotor, and appliance of an aircraft. The records
must include-

(i) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the
Administrator) of the work performed; and

(ii) The date of completion of the work performed; and

(iii) The signature, and certificate number of the person
approving the aircraft for return to service.

(2) Records containing the following information:

(i) The total time in service of the airframe, each engine,
each propeller, and each rotor.

(ii) The current status of life-limited parts of each
airframe, engine, propeller, rotor, and appliance.

(iii) The time since last overhaul of all items installed on
the aircraft which are required to be overhauled on a
specified time basis.

(iv) The current inspection status of the aircraft,
including the time since the last inspection required by the
inspection program under which the aircraft and its
appliances are maintained.

(v) The current status of applicable airworthiness
directives (AD) including, for each, the method of
compliance, the AD number, and revision date. If the AD
involves recurring action, the time and date when the next
action is required.

(vi) Copies of the forms prescribed by §43.9(a) of this
chapter for each major alteration to the airframe and
currently installed engines, rotors, propellers, and
appliances.

(b) The owner or operator shall retain the following records
for the periods prescribed:

(1) The records specified in paragraph (a)(1) of this
section shall be retained until the work is repeated or
superseded by other work or for 1 year after the work is
performed.

(2) The records specified in paragraph (a)(2) of this
section shall be retained and transferred with the aircraft
at the time the aircraft is sold.

(3) A list of defects furnished to a registered owner or
operator under §43.11 of this chapter shall be retained
until the defects are repaired and the aircraft is approved
for return to service.

(c) The owner or operator shall make all maintenance records
required to be kept by this section available for inspection
by the Administrator or any authorized representative of the
National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB). In addition,
the owner or operator shall present Form 337 described in
paragraph (d) of this section for inspection upon request of
any law enforcement officer.

(d) When a fuel tank is installed within the passenger
compartment or a baggage compartment pursuant to part 43 of
this chapter, a copy of FAA Form 337 shall be kept on board
the modified aircraft by the owner or operator.

(Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under
control number 2120-0005)

§ 43.9 Content, form, and disposition of maintenance,
preventive maintenance, rebuilding, and alteration records
(except inspections performed in accordance with part 91,
part 125, §135.411(a)(1), and §135.419 of this chapter).
(a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in
paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, each person who
maintains, performs preventive maintenance, rebuilds, or
alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller,
appliance, or component part shall make an entry in the
maintenance record of that equipment containing the
following information:

(1) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the
Administrator) of work performed.

(2) The date of completion of the work performed.

(3) The name of the person performing the work if other than
the person specified in paragraph (a)(4) of this section.

(4) If the work performed on the aircraft, airframe,
aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part has
been performed satisfactorily, the signature, certificate
number, and kind of certificate held by the person approving
the work. The signature constitutes the approval for return
to service only for the work performed.

(b) Each holder of an air carrier operating certificate or
an operating certificate issued under Part 121 or 135, that
is required by its approved operations specifications to
provide for a continuous airworthiness maintenance program,
shall make a record of the maintenance, preventive
maintenance, rebuilding, and alteration, on aircraft,
airframes, aircraft engines, propellers, appliances, or
component parts which it operates in accordance with the
applicable provisions of Part 121 or 135 of this chapter, as
appropriate.

(c) This section does not apply to persons performing
inspections in accordance with Part 91, 125, §135.411(a)(1),
or §135.419 of this chapter.

(d) In addition to the entry required by paragraph (a) of
this section, major repairs and major alterations shall be
entered on a form, and the form disposed of, in the manner
prescribed in appendix B, by the person performing the work.

[Amdt. 43-23, 47 FR 41085, Sept. 16, 1982, as amended by
Amdt. 43-37, 66 FR 21066, Apr


"Tim" wrote in message
...
| See inline replies.
|
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| An equipment list is required and lists all components
and
| accessories and parts installed, except for the airframe
| itself.
|
| Where is the reg for this? I have not found it yet. Is
there a
| specified format?
|
| A really well done equipment list will include the
| model and serial number for items and not just the name,
| weight and station [location on the airplane]. This
makes
| researching and compliance with ADs much easier.
| The engine, propeller, alternator, magnetos, battery,
| radios, wheels, tires, brakes, seat belts should be
listed.
|
| But older airplanes did not have a modern POH and the
| owners' handbook would also sometime include a separate
AFM
| and the factory original W&B data should have had the
| equipment list and the FAA should have a copy of that in
the
| registry in OKC. You can then survey the airplane [good
| time to do a real annual]
|
| As opposed to an "unreal annual?" I am not sure what you
mean by this.
|
| and verify that each item is
| really installed, update to include serial numbers and
| current AD status and add any items that have been added
and
| delete items that are no longer installed.
|
| I am most likely going to base mine on the log book
entries and an
| equipment list from a plane of the same year and model.
|
| thanks, tim
|
|
|
|
|
| "Tim" wrote in message
| ...
| | Mark Hansen wrote:
| | On 03/01/07 21:44, Tim wrote:
| |
| | What is required as far as a formal equipment list
for
| part 91
| | operations? In reading 91.205 and listening to one
| instructor I know, I
| | cannot reconcile what he says with the FARs. He
states
| that an aircraft
| | must have an equipment list. I cannot find an
equipment
| list for the
| | plane I fly regularly. I see partial entries for
| "equipment list" on
| | W&B forms in the plane, but no formal equipment list
| showing all the
| | arms/moments and weights of all the items in the
| aircraft. I have seen
| | examples of this for various aircraft in the POH.
| |
| | I fly an older AA5A and the POH is not even close to
| what I would call a
| | useful document for the airplane. It is very brief,
| contains errors and
| | contains self-contradictory information. I am not
| surprised to seem to
| | be missing a required document.
| |
| | Is this a required document? If so, how can I
recreate
| it or obtain a
| | new one? I was considering recreating from an
account
| of the logs.
| |
| | The manufacturer is no longer in business.
| |
| | Any idea where I would find "equipment list"
| requirements in the regs?
| |
| | thanks,
| | tim
| |
| |
| | There was a recent article by Mike Busch at AVWeb on
| this topic. AVWeb
| | members can see the article he
| |
| |
http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/194428-1.html
| |
| | If you're not a member already, join! It's free and
| there's lots of great
| | stuff there.
| |
| |
| | After posting this I found the article. Thanks.
|
|

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
...
Look in part 23 and 91.
§ 23.1589 Loading information.
The following loading information must be furnished:



So we are all agreed that an up to date equipment list is not a regulatory
requirement, right?
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

"Tim" wrote

All my annuals are real annuals. I might almost be insulted by this
comment.

You might be rightfully insulted, but the sad fact remains that many annuals
are "pencil whipped" annuals.
--
Jim in NC

There are many annuals done each year that are pencil
whipped. You get what you want and pay for, more power to
you for doing it right.



"Tim" wrote in message
...
| All my annuals are real annuals. I might almost be
insulted by this
| comment.
|
|
|
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| A real annual is when the AI actual looks at all the
details
| and the owner wants it done right, not just cheap.
|
|
|
| "Tim" wrote in message
| ...
| | See inline replies.
| |
| | Jim Macklin wrote:
| | An equipment list is required and lists all
components
| and
| | accessories and parts installed, except for the
airframe
| | itself.
| |
| | Where is the reg for this? I have not found it yet.
Is
| there a
| | specified format?
| |
| | A really well done equipment list will include the
| | model and serial number for items and not just the
name,
| | weight and station [location on the airplane]. This
| makes
| | researching and compliance with ADs much easier.
| | The engine, propeller, alternator, magnetos,
battery,
| | radios, wheels, tires, brakes, seat belts should be
| listed.
| |
| | But older airplanes did not have a modern POH and
the
| | owners' handbook would also sometime include a
separate
| AFM
| | and the factory original W&B data should have had
the
| | equipment list and the FAA should have a copy of
that in
| the
| | registry in OKC. You can then survey the airplane
[good
| | time to do a real annual]
| |
| | As opposed to an "unreal annual?" I am not sure what
you
| mean by this.
| |
| | and verify that each item is
| | really installed, update to include serial numbers
and
| | current AD status and add any items that have been
added
| and
| | delete items that are no longer installed.
| |
| | I am most likely going to base mine on the log book
| entries and an
| | equipment list from a plane of the same year and
model.
| |
| | thanks, tim
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| | "Tim" wrote in message
| | ...
| | | Mark Hansen wrote:
| | | On 03/01/07 21:44, Tim wrote:
| | |
| | | What is required as far as a formal equipment
list
| for
| | part 91
| | | operations? In reading 91.205 and listening to
one
| | instructor I know, I
| | | cannot reconcile what he says with the FARs. He
| states
| | that an aircraft
| | | must have an equipment list. I cannot find an
| equipment
| | list for the
| | | plane I fly regularly. I see partial entries
for
| | "equipment list" on
| | | W&B forms in the plane, but no formal equipment
list
| | showing all the
| | | arms/moments and weights of all the items in the
| | aircraft. I have seen
| | | examples of this for various aircraft in the
POH.
| | |
| | | I fly an older AA5A and the POH is not even
close to
| | what I would call a
| | | useful document for the airplane. It is very
brief,
| | contains errors and
| | | contains self-contradictory information. I am
not
| | surprised to seem to
| | | be missing a required document.
| | |
| | | Is this a required document? If so, how can I
| recreate
| | it or obtain a
| | | new one? I was considering recreating from an
| account
| | of the logs.
| | |
| | | The manufacturer is no longer in business.
| | |
| | | Any idea where I would find "equipment list"
| | requirements in the regs?
| | |
| | | thanks,
| | | tim
| | |
| | |
| | | There was a recent article by Mike Busch at
AVWeb on
| | this topic. AVWeb
| | | members can see the article he
| | |
| | |
| http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/194428-1.html
| | |
| | | If you're not a member already, join! It's free
and
| | there's lots of great
| | | stuff there.
| | |
| | |
| | | After posting this I found the article. Thanks.
| |
| |
|
|

No, it is required by part 43 et al.



"Travis Marlatte" wrote in
message
t...
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| ...
| Look in part 23 and 91.
| § 23.1589 Loading information.
| The following loading information must be furnished:
|
|
|
| So we are all agreed that an up to date equipment list is
not a regulatory
| requirement, right?
| -------------------------------
| Travis
| Lake N3094P
| PWK
|
|

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
...
No, it is required by part 43 et al.


This thread is in reference to an equipment list with weight and balance
information. I don't see that in the portions of part 43 that you quoted (or
anywhere else). What you have shown is that work must be documented. Log
book entries and an updated W&B would satisfy those regs. That implies to
me that one could construct an equipment list from the records but not that
an up to date equipment list is to be maintained.

I really am not trying to be confrontational. In fact, I assume that I'm
missing something because both Steve Ellis and Mike Busch claim that it is
necessary. I just don't see it. And, apparently, neither to many pilots and
A&P's because I have never seen such a list kept up to date (in my admitedly
limited exposure to such things).
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

Travis Marlatte wrote:
"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
...

No, it is required by part 43 et al.



This thread is in reference to an equipment list with weight and balance
information. I don't see that in the portions of part 43 that you quoted (or
anywhere else). What you have shown is that work must be documented. Log
book entries and an updated W&B would satisfy those regs. That implies to
me that one could construct an equipment list from the records but not that
an up to date equipment list is to be maintained.

I really am not trying to be confrontational. In fact, I assume that I'm
missing something because both Steve Ellis and Mike Busch claim that it is
necessary. I just don't see it. And, apparently, neither to many pilots and
A&P's because I have never seen such a list kept up to date (in my admitedly
limited exposure to such things).
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK


It isn't exactly clear to me - the only thing I see is a reference for
it in part 23 (from Jim's earlier post)- that it has to be part of the
airplane manual. I guess then all other fars about the airplane manual
then come into play. I see nothing in part 91 about it.

I could be wrong. Not a lot of information on this. Certainly not
something that I was taught as a PP student. (And the usual FAR books
that are sold don't even have a part 23 section - I had to look it up
online)