equipment list?

On Mar 7, 8:58 am, Tim wrote:

It isn't exactly clear to me - the only thing I see is a reference for
it in part 23 (from Jim's earlier post)- that it has to be part of the
airplane manual. I guess then all other fars about the airplane manual
then come into play. I see nothing in part 91 about it.

I could be wrong. Not a lot of information on this. Certainly not
something that I was taught as a PP student. (And the usual FAR books
that are sold don't even have a part 23 section - I had to look it up
online)

One of thing that confuses this issue is that Part 23 requirements
do not apply to aircraft certified under the old CAR3 regulations.
As I recall, CAR3 did not require a current equipment list, although
some manufacturers (Piper in my case) provided a serialized "Airplane
Flight Manual" that contained an equipment list. My old (CAR3) 172
did not have one.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

Yes, I think I also don't have to have one - it is quite muddled. I am
making one though.

what year was that up to?

wrote:
On Mar 7, 8:58 am, Tim wrote:

It isn't exactly clear to me - the only thing I see is a reference for
it in part 23 (from Jim's earlier post)- that it has to be part of the
airplane manual. I guess then all other fars about the airplane manual
then come into play. I see nothing in part 91 about it.

I could be wrong. Not a lot of information on this. Certainly not
something that I was taught as a PP student. (And the usual FAR books
that are sold don't even have a part 23 section - I had to look it up
online)


One of thing that confuses this issue is that Part 23 requirements
do not apply to aircraft certified under the old CAR3 regulations.
As I recall, CAR3 did not require a current equipment list, although
some manufacturers (Piper in my case) provided a serialized "Airplane
Flight Manual" that contained an equipment list. My old (CAR3) 172
did not have one.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
...
FAR 125 requires actual weighing the aircraft on a schedule.
New aircraft are assumed to be accurate, but not all
airplanes are weighed.


Are we talking about an equipment list for Part 125 operations? If so, I
missed that.

As for us Part 91 guys, no up to date equipement list is required (other
than log book entries when work is done) and no regular weighing is mandated
(other than updating the W&B when stuff is removed or added).

"Tim" wrote in message ...
Travis Marlatte wrote:
"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
...

No, it is required by part 43 et al.



This thread is in reference to an equipment list with weight and balance
information. I don't see that in the portions of part 43 that you quoted (or
anywhere else). What you have shown is that work must be documented. Log
book entries and an updated W&B would satisfy those regs. That implies to
me that one could construct an equipment list from the records but not that
an up to date equipment list is to be maintained.

I really am not trying to be confrontational. In fact, I assume that I'm
missing something because both Steve Ellis and Mike Busch claim that it is
necessary. I just don't see it. And, apparently, neither to many pilots and
A&P's because I have never seen such a list kept up to date (in my admitedly
limited exposure to such things).
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK


It isn't exactly clear to me - the only thing I see is a reference for
it in part 23 (from Jim's earlier post)- that it has to be part of the
airplane manual. I guess then all other fars about the airplane manual
then come into play. I see nothing in part 91 about it.

I could be wrong. Not a lot of information on this. Certainly not
something that I was taught as a PP student. (And the usual FAR books
that are sold don't even have a part 23 section - I had to look it up
online)


Wow. I'm really struggling here. This thread is about whether an up to date equipment list with weight and balance information is required. Tim, as the original poster, asked about Part 91 operations.

Jim quoted Part 23 - which is relevant but comes no where close to saying than an equipment list is required at all, much less kept up to date. The part he quoted merely said that the location of anything "that can be easily removed, relocated, or replaced" had to be identified - for certification. Once the plane is out of the door of the factory, I don't see how it applies. In fact, the wording is past tense:
§ 23.1589 Loading information.
The following loading information must be furnished:

(a) The weight and location of each item of equipment that
can be easily removed, relocated, or replaced and that is
installed when the airplane was weighed under the
requirement of §23.25.

So, it is clear that an equipment list should be part of the POH of modern planes. But, so far, it doesn't have to be kept up to date. In fact, the regs say that the POH must be preserved and in the plane. Since 23.1589 desribes the list of equipment at the original weighing, that implies that the original list must survive through all of the changes. At best, you could supplement it with an updated list.

The Part 43 stuff is the usual log entry requirements. Nothing about an equipment list.

Part 43 and Part 91 only says that the W&B and other usual docs be updated. Nothing about an equipment list.

Putting all that together, we have an accurate description of the plane as it left the factory. And, logbook entries that describe all the deltas since then. And, a current W&B having applied all those deltas.

Excerpts from "The Savvy Aviator #41: Is Your Equipment List Up-To-Date?" by Mike Busch, AvWeb, February 14, 2007
He quotes his IA, ""Your POH or W&B Report is required to include an up-to-date equipment list, and that list must be revised whenever equipment is added or removed."

Mike explains that the equipment list in his POH was an exhaustive list of all of the possible pieces of equipment at manufacture but that there was no indication of what had actually been installed.

I will agree that this sounds like a violation of Part 23. My 1979 Operating Manual also has an exhaustive list but it does have check marks for the equipment that was installed. Never been updated. In fact, there were modification before it ever left the factory. These are indicated in the logbook - not on the equipment list.

Mike goes on to quote from an FAA publication:
The FAA publication that discusses all this best is FAA-H-8083-1, "Aircraft Weight and Balance Handbook," published in 1999. Quoting from that document:


"An equipment list is furnished with the aircraft which specifies all the required equipment, and all equipment approved for installation in the aircraft. The weight and arm of each item is included on the list, and all equipment installed when the aircraft left the factory is checked.

"When an Aircraft Maintenance Technician adds or removes any item on the equipment list, he or she must change the weight and balance record to indicate the new empty weight and empty-weight CG, and the equipment list is revised to show which equipment is actually installed."

That sounds pretty definitive except for two things. First, this is not regulation. It says that the W&B must be updated but this is not what makes that regulatory. The FARs also say this. Second, the sentence is a bit ambiguous. Does the "must" carry through to the equipment list fragment. To me, it seems more like "must update the W&B and you might as well update the equipment list too." If the FARs made it clear that an up to date equipment list was required, then the interpretation of this publication would also be clear. They don't. It isn't.

For Part 91 operations, an up to date equipment list is not required. Fun to do. Nice to have. But not required.

I sent an email to Mike Busch before this thread got started but I didn't get a reply. Mike, where are you? Care to chime in?

Tim, got your answer yet? If so, let me know 'cause I don't.

-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message t...
"Tim" wrote in message ...
Travis Marlatte wrote:
"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
...

No, it is required by part 43 et al.



This thread is in reference to an equipment list with weight and balance
information. I don't see that in the portions of part 43 that you quoted (or
anywhere else). What you have shown is that work must be documented. Log
book entries and an updated W&B would satisfy those regs. That implies to
me that one could construct an equipment list from the records but not that
an up to date equipment list is to be maintained.

I really am not trying to be confrontational. In fact, I assume that I'm
missing something because both Steve Ellis and Mike Busch claim that it is
necessary. I just don't see it. And, apparently, neither to many pilots and
A&P's because I have never seen such a list kept up to date (in my admitedly
limited exposure to such things).
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK


It isn't exactly clear to me - the only thing I see is a reference for
it in part 23 (from Jim's earlier post)- that it has to be part of the
airplane manual. I guess then all other fars about the airplane manual
then come into play. I see nothing in part 91 about it.

I could be wrong. Not a lot of information on this. Certainly not
something that I was taught as a PP student. (And the usual FAR books
that are sold don't even have a part 23 section - I had to look it up
online)


Wow. I'm really struggling here. This thread is about whether an up to date equipment list with weight and balance information is required. Tim, as the original poster, asked about Part 91 operations.

Jim quoted Part 23 - which is relevant but comes no where close to saying than an equipment list is required at all, much less kept up to date. The part he quoted merely said that the location of anything "that can be easily removed, relocated, or replaced" had to be identified - for certification. Once the plane is out of the door of the factory, I don't see how it applies. In fact, the wording is past tense:
§ 23.1589 Loading information.
The following loading information must be furnished:

(a) The weight and location of each item of equipment that
can be easily removed, relocated, or replaced and that is
installed when the airplane was weighed under the
requirement of §23.25.

So, it is clear that an equipment list should be part of the POH of modern planes. But, so far, it doesn't have to be kept up to date. In fact, the regs say that the POH must be preserved and in the plane. Since 23.1589 desribes the list of equipment at the original weighing, that implies that the original list must survive through all of the changes. At best, you could supplement it with an updated list.

The Part 43 stuff is the usual log entry requirements. Nothing about an equipment list.

Part 43 and Part 91 only says that the W&B and other usual docs be updated. Nothing about an equipment list.

Putting all that together, we have an accurate description of the plane as it left the factory. And, logbook entries that describe all the deltas since then. And, a current W&B having applied all those deltas.

Excerpts from "The Savvy Aviator #41: Is Your Equipment List Up-To-Date?" by Mike Busch, AvWeb, February 14, 2007
He quotes his IA, ""Your POH or W&B Report is required to include an up-to-date equipment list, and that list must be revised whenever equipment is added or removed."

Mike explains that the equipment list in his POH was an exhaustive list of all of the possible pieces of equipment at manufacture but that there was no indication of what had actually been installed.

I will agree that this sounds like a violation of Part 23. My 1979 Operating Manual also has an exhaustive list but it does have check marks for the equipment that was installed. Never been updated. In fact, there were modification before it ever left the factory. These are indicated in the logbook - not on the equipment list.

Mike goes on to quote from an FAA publication:
The FAA publication that discusses all this best is FAA-H-8083-1, "Aircraft Weight and Balance Handbook," published in 1999. Quoting from that document:


"An equipment list is furnished with the aircraft which specifies all the required equipment, and all equipment approved for installation in the aircraft. The weight and arm of each item is included on the list, and all equipment installed when the aircraft left the factory is checked.

"When an Aircraft Maintenance Technician adds or removes any item on the equipment list, he or she must change the weight and balance record to indicate the new empty weight and empty-weight CG, and the equipment list is revised to show which equipment is actually installed."

That sounds pretty definitive except for two things. First, this is not regulation. It says that the W&B must be updated but this is not what makes that regulatory. The FARs also say this. Second, the sentence is a bit ambiguous. Does the "must" carry through to the equipment list fragment. To me, it seems more like "must update the W&B and you might as well update the equipment list too." If the FARs made it clear that an up to date equipment list was required, then the interpretation of this publication would also be clear. They don't. It isn't.

For Part 91 operations, an up to date equipment list is not required. Fun to do. Nice to have. But not required.

I sent an email to Mike Busch before this thread got started but I didn't get a reply. Mike, where are you? Care to chime in?

Tim, got your answer yet? If so, let me know 'cause I don't.

-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK



Sorry, I fell into my own trap. 23.1589 does not describe an equipment list. It does define a describe of easily movable stuff. That description obviously could be in the form of an equipment list but it could take other forms and certainly doesn't need to be of sufficient details to allow calculating the W&B of the plane from the list alone - which is where Mike Busch went with it. Whatever it is, should be in the POH and only describes the state of the plane at manufacture.
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

On Tue, 6 Mar 2007 03:54:15 -0800, Jim Macklin wrote
(in article ):

There are many annuals done each year that are pencil
whipped. You get what you want and pay for, more power to
you for doing it right.


You can learn a lot from an owner annual, but you have to find a mechanic
that is willing to work with you on it. If he charges you extra, it is
probably worth it.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

I meant to type 135 but 125 also requires that aircraft in
commercial service be actual put on scales and weighed on a
schedule. A proper aircraft weighing requires the
verification of the equipment list, nothing added or removed
that is not accounted for on paper.

The aircraft should be clean, the candy and soft drink cans
should be removed, even the life jackets that are not on the
equipment list should be removed. When they go back in,
they are baggage and not equipment.

Part 91 does require an equipment list and by practice, that
should be up to date. Just how complete the detail depends
on several things... but it should include the item name,
location[station/arm] and the weight.


It is nice if it includes sufficient detail so an AD
compliance search can begin with a paper rather that
disassembly of the airplane.



"Travis Marlatte" wrote in
message
...
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| ...
| FAR 125 requires actual weighing the aircraft on a
schedule.
| New aircraft are assumed to be accurate, but not all
| airplanes are weighed.
|
|
| Are we talking about an equipment list for Part 125
operations? If so, I
| missed that.
|
| As for us Part 91 guys, no up to date equipement list is
required (other
| than log book entries when work is done) and no regular
weighing is mandated
| (other than updating the W&B when stuff is removed or
added).
|
|

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
...

Part 91 does require an equipment list and by practice, that
should be up to date. Just how complete the detail depends
on several things... but it should include the item name,
location[station/arm] and the weight.



Right. Every plane certification requires an equipment list that defines a
repeatable condition for weighing the plane at time of manufacture - at
least those manufactured under the current Part 23 regs. I would agree that
a reasonable practice would be to keep that list up to date. But there is no
Part 91/23/43 requirement to do so.

In other words, the plane is in Part 91 compliance as long as the POH has
that original list plus log book entries that describes all of the
modifications made. Theoretically, a concise equipment list could be
constructed by piecing all that together. Of course, years of "negligible
change to W&B" could add up.

-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

I suppose you could argue that the equipment list isn't needed, that a
trail through the
logbook would suffice. No one can seem to find the specific
reference.

If that's your point of view, would you be interested in paying every
IA who inspects your
plane to go through all the log entries and verify their correctness?
They would have
to do at least enough to convince themselves that it's OK.

From a practical standpoint, the equipment list is the only way to
go. I like one that
cites logbook references for each addition or deletion so the details
can be researched.
I can glimpse the equipment list and the airplane to verify general
alignment.

Bill Hale A&P IA Regulation Dummy


On Mar 7, 8:42 pm, "Travis Marlatte"
wrote:
"Tim" wrote in ...
Travis Marlatte wrote:
"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
...

No, it is required by part 43 et al.

This thread is in reference to an equipment list with weight and balance
information. I don't see that in the portions of part 43 that you quoted (or
anywhere else). What you have shown is that work must be documented. Log
book entries and an updated W&B would satisfy those regs. That implies to
me that one could construct an equipment list from the records but not that
an up to date equipment list is to be maintained.

I really am not trying to be confrontational. In fact, I assume that I'm
missing something because both Steve Ellis and Mike Busch claim that it is
necessary. I just don't see it. And, apparently, neither to many pilots and
A&P's because I have never seen such a list kept up to date (in my admitedly
limited exposure to such things).
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

It isn't exactly clear to me - the only thing I see is a reference for
it in part 23 (from Jim's earlier post)- that it has to be part of the
airplane manual. I guess then all other fars about the airplane manual
then come into play. I see nothing in part 91 about it.

I could be wrong. Not a lot of information on this. Certainly not
something that I was taught as a PP student. (And the usual FAR books
that are sold don't even have a part 23 section - I had to look it up
online)

Wow. I'm really struggling here. This thread is about whether an up to date equipment list with weight and balance information is required. Tim, as the original poster, asked about Part 91 operations.

Jim quoted Part 23 - which is relevant but comes no where close to saying than an equipment list is required at all, much less kept up to date. The part he quoted merely said that the location of anything "that can be easily removed, relocated, or replaced" had to be identified - for certification.. Once the plane is out of the door of the factory, I don't see how it applies. In fact, the wording is past tense:
§ 23.1589 Loading information.
The following loading information must be furnished:

(a) The weight and location of each item of equipment that
can be easily removed, relocated, or replaced and that is
installed when the airplane was weighed under the
requirement of §23.25.

So, it is clear that an equipment list should be part of the POH of modern planes. But, so far, it doesn't have to be kept up to date. In fact, the regs say that the POH must be preserved and in the plane. Since 23.1589 desribes the list of equipment at the original weighing, that implies that the original list must survive through all of the changes. At best, you could supplement it with an updated list.

The Part 43 stuff is the usual log entry requirements. Nothing about an equipment list.

Part 43 and Part 91 only says that the W&B and other usual docs be updated. Nothing about an equipment list.

Putting all that together, we have an accurate description of the plane as it left the factory. And, logbook entries that describe all the deltas since then. And, a current W&B having applied all those deltas.

Excerpts from "The Savvy Aviator #41: Is Your Equipment List Up-To-Date?" by Mike Busch, AvWeb, February 14, 2007
He quotes his IA, ""Your POH or W&B Report is required to include an up-to-date equipment list, and that list must be revised whenever equipment is added or removed."

Mike explains that the equipment list in his POH was an exhaustive list of all of the possible pieces of equipment at manufacture but that there was no indication of what had actually been installed.

I will agree that this sounds like a violation of Part 23. My 1979 Operating Manual also has an exhaustive list but it does have check marks for the equipment that was installed. Never been updated. In fact, there were modification before it ever left the factory. These are indicated in the logbook - not on the equipment list.

Mike goes on to quote from an FAA publication:
The FAA publication that discusses all this best is FAA-H-8083-1, "Aircraft Weight and Balance Handbook," published in 1999. Quoting from that document:

"An equipment list is furnished with the aircraft which specifies all the required equipment, and all equipment approved for installation in the aircraft. The weight and arm of each item is included on the list, and all equipment installed when the aircraft left the factory is checked.

"When an Aircraft Maintenance Technician adds or removes any item on the equipment list, he or she must change the weight and balance record to indicate the new empty weight and empty-weight CG, and the equipment list is revised to show which equipment is actually installed."

That sounds pretty definitive except for two things. First, this is not regulation. It says that the W&B must be updated but this is not what makes that regulatory. The FARs also say this. Second, the sentence is a bit ambiguous. Does the "must" carry through to the equipment list fragment. To me, it seems more like "must update the W&B and you might as well update the equipment list too." If the FARs made it clear that an up to date equipment list was required, then the interpretation of this publication would also be clear. They don't. It isn't.

For Part 91 operations, an up to date equipment list is not required. Fun to do. Nice to have. But not required.

I sent an email to Mike Busch before this thread got started but I didn't get a reply. Mike, where are you? Care to chime in?

Tim, got your answer yet? If so, let me know 'cause I don't.

-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I don't think anyone is arguing that it is bad to have one. I am just
hoping I have not operated against the regulations.

I am building my equipment list from a collection of W&B stuff, a
similar planes EL and my log books. I will end up with a good one soon.

thanks for all the comments from people.

wrote:
I suppose you could argue that the equipment list isn't needed, that a
trail through the
logbook would suffice. No one can seem to find the specific
reference.

If that's your point of view, would you be interested in paying every
IA who inspects your
plane to go through all the log entries and verify their correctness?
They would have
to do at least enough to convince themselves that it's OK.

From a practical standpoint, the equipment list is the only way to
go. I like one that
cites logbook references for each addition or deletion so the details
can be researched.
I can glimpse the equipment list and the airplane to verify general
alignment.

Bill Hale A&P IA Regulation Dummy


On Mar 7, 8:42 pm, "Travis Marlatte"
wrote:

"Tim" wrote in ...

Travis Marlatte wrote:

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
...

No, it is required by part 43 et al.

This thread is in reference to an equipment list with weight and balance
information. I don't see that in the portions of part 43 that you quoted (or
anywhere else). What you have shown is that work must be documented. Log
book entries and an updated W&B would satisfy those regs. That implies to
me that one could construct an equipment list from the records but not that
an up to date equipment list is to be maintained.

I really am not trying to be confrontational. In fact, I assume that I'm
missing something because both Steve Ellis and Mike Busch claim that it is
necessary. I just don't see it. And, apparently, neither to many pilots and
A&P's because I have never seen such a list kept up to date (in my admitedly
limited exposure to such things).
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

It isn't exactly clear to me - the only thing I see is a reference for
it in part 23 (from Jim's earlier post)- that it has to be part of the
airplane manual. I guess then all other fars about the airplane manual
then come into play. I see nothing in part 91 about it.

I could be wrong. Not a lot of information on this. Certainly not
something that I was taught as a PP student. (And the usual FAR books
that are sold don't even have a part 23 section - I had to look it up
online)

Wow. I'm really struggling here. This thread is about whether an up to date equipment list with weight and balance information is required. Tim, as the original poster, asked about Part 91 operations.

Jim quoted Part 23 - which is relevant but comes no where close to saying than an equipment list is required at all, much less kept up to date. The part he quoted merely said that the location of anything "that can be easily removed, relocated, or replaced" had to be identified - for certification. Once the plane is out of the door of the factory, I don't see how it applies. In fact, the wording is past tense:
§ 23.1589 Loading information.
The following loading information must be furnished:

(a) The weight and location of each item of equipment that
can be easily removed, relocated, or replaced and that is
installed when the airplane was weighed under the
requirement of §23.25.

So, it is clear that an equipment list should be part of the POH of modern planes. But, so far, it doesn't have to be kept up to date. In fact, the regs say that the POH must be preserved and in the plane. Since 23.1589 desribes the list of equipment at the original weighing, that implies that the original list must survive through all of the changes. At best, you could supplement it with an updated list.

The Part 43 stuff is the usual log entry requirements. Nothing about an equipment list.

Part 43 and Part 91 only says that the W&B and other usual docs be updated. Nothing about an equipment list.

Putting all that together, we have an accurate description of the plane as it left the factory. And, logbook entries that describe all the deltas since then. And, a current W&B having applied all those deltas.

Excerpts from "The Savvy Aviator #41: Is Your Equipment List Up-To-Date?" by Mike Busch, AvWeb, February 14, 2007
He quotes his IA, ""Your POH or W&B Report is required to include an up-to-date equipment list, and that list must be revised whenever equipment is added or removed."

Mike explains that the equipment list in his POH was an exhaustive list of all of the possible pieces of equipment at manufacture but that there was no indication of what had actually been installed.

I will agree that this sounds like a violation of Part 23. My 1979 Operating Manual also has an exhaustive list but it does have check marks for the equipment that was installed. Never been updated. In fact, there were modification before it ever left the factory. These are indicated in the logbook - not on the equipment list.

Mike goes on to quote from an FAA publication:
The FAA publication that discusses all this best is FAA-H-8083-1, "Aircraft Weight and Balance Handbook," published in 1999. Quoting from that document:

"An equipment list is furnished with the aircraft which specifies all the required equipment, and all equipment approved for installation in the aircraft. The weight and arm of each item is included on the list, and all equipment installed when the aircraft left the factory is checked.

"When an Aircraft Maintenance Technician adds or removes any item on the equipment list, he or she must change the weight and balance record to indicate the new empty weight and empty-weight CG, and the equipment list is revised to show which equipment is actually installed."

That sounds pretty definitive except for two things. First, this is not regulation. It says that the W&B must be updated but this is not what makes that regulatory. The FARs also say this. Second, the sentence is a bit ambiguous. Does the "must" carry through to the equipment list fragment. To me, it seems more like "must update the W&B and you might as well update the equipment list too." If the FARs made it clear that an up to date equipment list was required, then the interpretation of this publication would also be clear. They don't. It isn't.

For Part 91 operations, an up to date equipment list is not required. Fun to do. Nice to have. But not required.

I sent an email to Mike Busch before this thread got started but I didn't get a reply. Mike, where are you? Care to chime in?

Tim, got your answer yet? If so, let me know 'cause I don't.

-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -