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15 M Time Management Nationals
Hi Jonathan-
I assume that by the "ASA" you mean the Arizona Soaring Association and our basically unamimous voice against the "15 minute rule" and the one mile cylinder. First of all I don't understand the point that you are making since in your opening statement you say that "the contest was decided entirely by time management" then later that managing that time "netted him a whopping 2-4 points during the contest" wrt Timo's winning over Rick. It comes down to this as I have said before.....there needs to be a statement of purpose from the SRA or SSA re racing sailplanes. Currently there is none. What set of skills are we trying to measure in a sailplane racing pilot? Without a clear direction there is no way that one can argue for or against any changes in the rules. You (and I too) seem to agree that the fastest speed on course should win....period!!! I am confident that the rules committee is doing their best to be fair and make our sport safe. They felt that these changes were "minor" and so did not feel that they warranted a discussion period. I cannot see how they can be expected to perform their duties with no statement of purpose. Casey Lenox KC Phoenix |
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The reason for the whinging regarding the AAT tasks at the worlds was with a
50km radius area and only 20km vis in the haze it was a lottery deciding how far into the zone to fly. They had a rule that a certain percentage of the tasks have to be AATs. 20% I seem to remember. I agree that is should be a task set on a iffy weather day not a ripper racing day. Sort of a task setters " Buggered if I know but lets get in the air and see" day. Paul I suggest that everybody study the rules used at the Worlds, especially for speed tasks: Start line (1600 meters or so height, 10 km wide), no altitude limit before. 500m radius turnpoints. 1 km finish line, no altitude limit. Treat pilots like adults and most will behave like adults. A few won't. I really don't care about them - they are hopeless anyway. Interestingly, there was apparently a lot of complaining about all the AATs (our TATs) that were called - the pilots were getting really tired of them and wanted to get back to real racing. What a surprise. TATs should ONLY be called if there is no alternative - if the weather is so unpredictable that an AST cannot be safely called. Period. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a ******! Kirk 66 Flew a 309 mile 3:30 TAT yesterday at 86 mph and 3:35. Great AZ desert conditions. TS1 beat me at 87 mph and 316 miles and 3:39. But I would have preferred an AST! |
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"Kirk Stant" wrote in message
I suggest that everybody study the rules used at the Worlds, especially for speed tasks: Start line (1600 meters or so height, 10 km wide), no altitude limit before. 500m radius turnpoints. 1 km finish line, no altitude limit. Interestingly, there was apparently a lot of complaining about all the AATs (our TATs) that were called - the pilots were getting really tired of them and wanted to get back to real racing. What a surprise. No surprise that the pilots get tired of these tasks Kirk, the scoring rules created for the AST and PST speed tasks with variable distance are just a pain and I wonder who is responsible for them. (see FAI SC S3 / ANNEX A). I studied these rules and it is quite a challenge to understand how rules and scoring formulas work. Time limits in general are just a hassle and create headache for the pilot trying to figure out how he could optimize his flight. Officially we have now - RT Racing Task (classic task, fix distance for all) - AST Speed Task - Assigned Areas (var. distance, minimum time) - PST Speed Task - Pilot Selected (var. distance, minimum time) - TAT Distance Task - Assigned Areas (var. distance, maximum time) - TPT Distance Task - Pilot Selected Well - even if you are told what kind of tasks the competition will contain, you will not really know what you get, because 3 different possibilities of scoring are applicable. A. 1000-Points Scoring System: The Score is expressed in points (the maximum available daily Score is 1000 points). B. Kilometre Scoring System: The Score is expressed in kilometres (the max available daily Score is equal to the best Distance of the Day) C. Place Scoring System: The Score is expressed in places (the maximum available Place Score for the Day is 25). D. Or you might have local scoring rules and formulas. Most competitions use the 1000point system - lets have a look. RT Racing Task is the classic task with 2/3 of the max points for speed and 1/3 for distance, if enough competitors return home. I still like it, especially the Australian version with different start points. (no 15min start gate time needed) They give speed points only and if you messed up a day completely you better land short of the home field, even if you could make it home, because you will get more points) AST Speed Task over Assigned Area turn points PST Speed Task over Pilot selected turn points - for both tasks distance is variable and a minimum time applies - The winner points are split up 2/3 for speed and 1/3 for distance. - Finishers get the same distance points as the pilot with the biggest distance even if there distance is smaller!!!! - Finishers returning home too early get the speed calculated with the minimum time given. In my opinion this kind of scoring is just nonsense! If more points are given for speed than distance, every pilot will fly the shortest distance to minimise the risk. After the experience of the SA pre-worlds the IGC created the minimum time - what a stupid idea!! For variable distance speed tasks the points should be given equally for distance and speed (50/50%). That would give the pilots a reason to fly as far and fast as possible. Each pilots gets points for his own flown distance and his speed. If done so, the minimum time, which gives the pilot headache to optimise the task, is not needed anymore. TAT Distance Task over Assigned Areas turn points TPT Distance Task over Pilot Selected turn points - for both tasks a maximum time applies - distance points are given only - no penalty is given, if you return home too late, but only the distance taken, flown until the max. time has been reached. I can live with TAT. TPT is fine as long as the weather is more or less homogeneous in the competition area. The only problem is, that normally the task manager will give you a task like that, if weather conditions are very unpredictable. As a result you might in Switzerland have turn points in the mountains, in the flat region or towards the Jura, regions with very different weather pattern. Then it is like throwing the dice - where shall you go? If selecting the wrong region - you are fu....ed. Personally I do not like PST and TPT tasks. Unpredictable weather pattern can just make it a lucky game. I prefer tasks where pilots have to fly in a given sequence to certain areas, and every pilot faces about the same problems. But with the current formulas for AST and PST tasks, I will not fly any competitions using them. It is just a crazy scoring way to compare pilots abilities. I do not need this kind of experience. Then I prefer to spend some nice days flying for fun and declare it in the OLC. Chris Hostettler Melbourne |
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"CH" wrote in message ...
No surprise that the pilots get tired of these tasks Kirk, the scoring rules created for the AST and PST speed tasks with variable distance are just a pain and I wonder who is responsible for them. (see FAI SC S3 / ANNEX A). I studied these rules and it is quite a challenge to understand how rules and scoring formulas work. Time limits in general are just a hassle and create headache for the pilot trying to figure out how he could optimize his flight. (snip lots of good stuff) Chris, I agree with you completely. I was being a bit sarcastic in my post... Over here in the colonies our rules makers have gone totally ga-ga, making a lot of PC changes to the rules so everybody feels good and flies safe, blah blah. Somehow the concept of "racing" seems to have been lost. To confuse matters even more, over here in the US an AST is what you call an ST, except we use huge 1 mile radius turn areas, so distance is scored on actual distance flown - nobody flies the same distance. And our TAT is what the FAI calls an AST (but called an AAT at the worlds?). Plus we score in Mph and statute miles, but usually fly in Knots, and of course records are in Kilometers. Meanwhile, our "Sports Class" is stuck with nothing but PST (pilot selected tasks), which is basically a bunch of guys going cross country on the same day. Fun, but hardly a race, IMHO, and poor preparation for "the real thing". But it sure makes it easier for the Contest Director/Task caller! And we better not get started on 15 minute scoring adjustments, 500 ft min finish at 1 mile, etc... Out west a lot of us absolutely HATE the new rules. I guess back east they are more popular. Must be something in the water. ARRRGH! Thank god we just had a great (if REALLY HOT) weekend out here in Phoenix. Saturday our local racing gang flew a 500+k TAT at over 86mph, and Sunday a 500+k AST (to the Grand Canyon and back) at over 88mph. Kirk |
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"Kirk Stant" wrote...
Meanwhile, our "Sports Class" is stuck with nothing but PST (pilot selected tasks), which is basically a bunch of guys going cross country on the same day. Fun, but hardly a race, IMHO, and poor preparation for "the real thing". But it sure makes it easier for the Contest Director/Task caller! Sports Class contests can use TATs starting with this season, and a quick glance at the National and Region 11 scores indicates that they were called for roughly half of the tasks. Seems like a good fit to me... Marc |
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In article , stant2
@mindspring.com says... Meanwhile, our "Sports Class" is stuck with nothing but PST (pilot selected tasks), which is basically a bunch of guys going cross country on the same day. Not true. The sports class uses the MAT: 10.3.2.2 ‡ Modified Assigned Task (MAT) - Speed over a course of one or more turnpoints, with a finish at the contest site. The is no PST as such. I like the MAT quite a bit more than the old PST, because everyone does get to fly together for a while. The slow gliders head for home after one or two turnpoints, while the rest of us might be together for 3 or more, before we run out of assigned turnpoints and start doing our own thing. Of course, if the CD never assigns any turnpoints (shame on those that don't!), it's just like the old PST. Fun, but hardly a race, IMHO, and poor preparation for "the real thing". But it sure makes it easier for the Contest Director/Task caller! Who can have a big problem selecting a task for a field that can include both a 1-26 and an ASH 26. The MAT makes it easier for the CD to call a task with assigned turnpoints and still accommodate the wide range of gliders that often shows up for a Sports Class event. Not all CD's are aware of the option, or some of the pilots, either. I've found that encouraging a CD to use the MAT yields better tasks. -- !Replace DECIMAL.POINT in my e-mail address with just a . to reply directly Eric Greenwell Richland, WA (USA) |
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Eric Greenwell wrote Not true.
The sports class uses the MAT: 10.3.2.2 ? Modified Assigned Task (MAT) - Speed over a course of one or more turnpoints, with a finish at the contest site. I stand corrected. A well designed MAT, with more than one turnpoint, can be a respectable race task when trying to fit different performance gliders in the same task. However, as you mention, when the CD only assigns one (or none?!) turnpoints, the whole exercise becomes a joke. TATs are possible, but if you have a range of gliders from 1-26s to Nimbus 3s competing, it could be a real challenge to make a good task. Good luck. Still not my cup of tea (or preferably, bottle of ice-cold post-flight beer). I understand the goal of the sports class races, but by not breaking the field into rough performance classes (low and high is all that is really needed), everyone is probably penalized, or someone is going to be have an advantage. Europe's Club class is another approach (Limited to roughly equivalent performance, handicapped, no new ships allowed). The ASA's A, B, and C classes of tasks is another (All ships handicapped; A class is allowed water. B class is dry with a shorter task, C class has even shorter task for 1-26s, 1-23, Dusters, PW-5s etc.) As has been brought up in another post, what is the "mission statement" of the Sports class? Is it training for the Std/15m/18m/Open classes? Or is it a 'fun race get-together'? Both are OK, but it would really drive how the races are setup. My feeling now is that it is the latter. Kirk 66 |
#9
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I flew in the 15M Nationals at Hobbs. Interestingly it was the first
contest that I flew the TAT task. I like it! I understand the 15 minute rule but don't like it and think it should go away. The time management doesn't seem all that hard to me. Go as far as you can into the first cylinders and then for the last cylinder set your goal as the finish point and just watch your distance compared to the time left. I turned the first day near Andrews at 58 miles out with 30 minutes left and finished about 2 minutes early. On day 8 with Kenna and Wink as the turns, I went 68 miles from finish with 30 minutes left and made it back two minutes over. Pretty amazing when you think about it. (But I digress) It all seems to a matter of judgement about what the weather is doing and how fast you think you can fly. But that is always the case that you have to make judgements. I do like a finish gate and feel that it is safer than a cylinder. As you are finishing you can hear others calling 4 miles and knowing your own location it is much easier to look for others as everyone approaches the finish line from generally the same direction. David Martin ASW 27 BV |
#10
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