New Class for US Nationals

On Nov 8, 5:23*pm, wrote:
RC Chair

*A GREAT step forward! Club and Modern are two excellent divisions.
I'm sure 12 Club Class pilots will show up. Reverting the entire
contest to "Modern", *if 12 Modern pilots do not show up, seems
counter productive though.

Mike

If 12 sports and 12 modern do not show up, it reverts to traditional sports, not "modern." The big point: we do not send anybody home! *If there is not enough for two classes, we fly in one class. That's why "club" includes lower performance gliders too.
12 pilots was chosen so we know for really sure that 8 will finish with 40% of the winners score.
John Cochrane

Ooops! Yes,Traditional Sports. Makes perfect sense. Good going guys.

On Thursday, November 8, 2012 4:05:49 PM UTC-8, Mike C wrote:

Reverting the entire contest to "Modern", if 12 Modern pilots do not show up, seems
counter productive though.

Mike

Would you suggest they just go home or some other solution? Seems to me that 12 at a Nationals is a decent threshold for splitting out a separate class.

9B

On Thursday, November 8, 2012 4:31:37 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thursday, November 8, 2012 4:05:49 PM UTC-8, Mike C wrote:



Reverting the entire contest to "Modern", if 12 Modern pilots do not show up, seems

counter productive though.



Mike



Would you suggest they just go home or some other solution? Seems to me that 12 at a Nationals is a decent threshold for splitting out a separate class.



9B

Oops - I take it back.

On Nov 7, 2:21*pm, wrote:
The US Rules Subcommittee has added Club Class as a national championship class starting in 2013. *The plan is to co locate with Sports.
Generally described, subject to usual wordsmithing and refinement, Club will be gliders with a handicap of .898(similar to what Worlds does except letting in LS-6 and Ventus 1) and all lower performance gliders. This means we extend beyond what WGC does on the low end to let everybody be able to play. No water ballast will be used.
"Modern" Sports will allow anybody to be in this class but handicap limit will be .940. Gliders below that performance may enter but will not receive the full handicap benefit and tasking considerations will not reflect their performance. *No water ballast will be used.
This concept allows common std ships like Discus etc and ships like 20's to decide which class they would like to enter.
The rules will provide for assigned tasks in both Modern Sports and Club, subject to task setter evaluation of the fleet in the class.
If we do not get 12 in Club and Modern Sports, the contest reverts to traditional Sports only.
Final numbers and rules text will be a few weeks away using the normal rules process.
Final approval will be at the SSA BOD *winter meeting in February.
It is expected that the US Team committee will use Club results going forward to select the Club team. This has not yet been confirmed by the USTC.
We are making this announcement in advance to allow affected pilots more time to plan.
If we waited through the full process, it would be only 3 months from approval to the race.
Full details of the proposed rules will be available as part of the Rules Change Summary due to be published on 12/22/12.
This will require re doing entries after the rule becomes effective. Thanks to Karl and Iris for putting up with this extra work. It would be helpful to them if you advise what class you intend to fly in.
For the Rules Committee
UH
RC Chair

A few years late but still great!

Ryszard, I am glad they kept the weight correction, without it many

of would not fly in the Sports/Club class, especially in the west.

Here is an example; last weekend we were doing some flight testing

with three gliders, an ASG-29-15, ASW27 and my Ventus 2a. To get them

to equal wing-loading the ASG-29 flew dry, the ASW-27 added 29 pounds

of water and I had to add 211 pounds.


OT, but interested to know. What was the result of the flight test?
John Cochrane

The Ventus and LS-6 should not be included. They would have a significant advantage at sites like Parowan and Mifflin. They are competitive in the Handicapped FAI class and therefore are not being left without a home. Thank you for creating this class, but please reconsider whether including those gliders make sense.

2C

On Thursday, November 8, 2012 8:45:24 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, November 8, 2012 12:19:01 AM UTC-5, RW wrote:

On Wednesday, November 7, 2012 2:21:57 PM UTC-5, wrote: The US Rules Subcommittee has added Club Class as a national championship class starting in 2013. The plan is to co locate with Sports. Generally described, subject to usual wordsmithing and refinement, Club will be gliders with a handicap of .898(similar to what Worlds does except letting in LS-6 and Ventus 1) and all lower performance gliders. This means we extend beyond what WGC does on the low end to let everybody be able to play.. No water ballast will be used. "Modern" Sports will allow anybody to be in this class but handicap limit will be .940. Gliders below that performance may enter but will not receive the full handicap benefit and tasking considerations will not reflect their performance. No water ballast will be used. This concept allows common std ships like Discus etc and ships like 20's to decide which class they would like to enter. The rules will provide for assigned tasks in both Modern Sports and Club, subject to task setter evaluation of the fleet in the class. If we do not get 12 in Club and Modern Sports, the contest reverts to traditional Sports only. Final numbers and rules text will be a few weeks away using the normal rules process. Final approval will be at the SSA BOD winter meeting in February. It is expected that the US Team committee will use Club results going forward to select the Club team. This has not yet been confirmed by the USTC. We are making this announcement in advance to allow affected pilots more time to plan. If we waited through the full process, it would be only 3 months from approval to the race. Full details of the proposed rules will be available as part of the Rules Change Summary due to be published on 12/22/12. This will require re doing entries after the rule becomes effective. Thanks to Karl and Iris for putting up with this extra work. It would be helpful to them if you advise what class you intend to fly in. For the Rules Committee UH RC Chair I'm very disappointed with RC . Club Class has to have only IGC Club Class gliders : no LS-6 and no Ventus pls. Weight of the Club Class glider should be like by IGC : gross less water in the wings(tail water for balance OK) Handicap should not change,like IGC ,if pilot elects to fly with lower weight (no extra points for small pilots) Our US Club Class has to be like IGC Club Class. Our primary goal will be winning of WGC RW ( Ryszard Krolikowski)



I would have been shocked if you weren't dissapointed.

We expect that weights will be handled as we do now with Sports as this is what we see as most fair to all.

We included LS-6 and Ventus because they are contemporary with the ASW-20 which is on the IGC list.

Our Club class does not have to be exactly like IGC Club class.

Finally- our primary goal is participation, especially among new talented pilots with limited means, with winning of the WGC as a secondary concern.

UH

After 98% of racing pilots voted for club class gliders drivers to be considered for US Team, we had 2 years of waiting period before this could be implemented .
Meantime RC quietly expands list to LS-6 and this year quietly to
Ventus.(without asking anybody,without waiting period)
It is very disappointing that RC member showed up in Parowan Sports Nationals
with Ventus as a big surprise of new extended club class list !
RW

RW: you're setting new standards of incoherence here

After 98% of racing pilots voted for club class gliders drivers to be considered for US Team,

98%? I'd like to see that poll. I write the poll and read the results
annually. We haven't had 98% on the proposition "should the sky remain
blue?"

It is very disappointing that RC member showed up in Parowan Sports Nationals
with Ventus as a big surprise of new extended club class list !

I presume you mean Garrett Willat in a Ventus ca. Then, you're only
getting wrong that Garrett isn't a RC member, the rule we're talking
about apply starting this year, not retroactive to last year, the
Ventus ca he flew was already on the US club class list (there is a
big "C" next to the glider on the ssa handicap table) and the fact
that the US team, not the rules committee decides which entrants from
a unified sports class qualify for US team club class points.

Maybe you mean Ken Sorenson (ssa contest committee chairman) in a
Ventus 2. Then you're getting wrong the difference between ventus 1
and ventus 2.

No other RC members competed at Parowan. With great regret, but in
fact we weren't there.

If you're mad that Garret beat you, on a handicapped basis, maybe
trying to engineer a contest where he doesn't get to come isn't the
answer.

A big theme of US team self-analysis right now is that we fly in races
that are too small. Europeans don't just fly in particular classes
with particular rules. They fly in huge contests with many top level
contenders, not just one or two. The case that we get better by
sending half the fleet home, eliminating lower-performance gliders
from nationals altogether, and having a little toy contest with 8.0
gliders seems pretty tenuous. If you want to get pushed to WGC level
performance, you should be offering to pay Garret's entry fee so that
a talented pilot with WGC experience will push up the level of
competition. No matter what glider he is in.

We gave you a contest with no ASW27/ASG29s, no Ventus 2s, no open
class gliders, no duos, and none of the FAI pilots who typically fly
those gliders and aren't about to waste their two weeks of vacation
flying the club standard cirrus at Mifflin.

Your job is to make darn sure 12 pilots in even our expansive
definition of club class show up. If they do not, the whole project is
over. Are you listening? The future of club class depends on getting a
sufficient turn out.

As the stones sang,

No, you can't always get what you want
No, you can't always get what you want
No, you can't always get what you want
But if you try sometime, you just might find
You get what you need


John Cochrane

And the Ventus and LS6 will have a significant advantage at this years Mifflin Nationals if their are a few ridge days. I also wonder if you will ever get enough "modern" gliders to have two classes if the Ventus and LS6 are considered "club" gliders.

After 98% of racing pilots voted for club class gliders drivers to be considered for US Team, we had 2 years of waiting period before this could be implemented .

Meantime RC quietly expands list to LS-6 and this year quietly to

Ventus.(without asking anybody,without waiting period)

It is very disappointing that RC member showed up in Parowan Sports Nationals

with Ventus as a big surprise of new extended club class list !

RW

On Nov 8, 7:21*pm, Kevin Christner wrote:
The Ventus and LS-6 should not be included. They would have a significant advantage at sites like Parowan and Mifflin. *They are competitive in the Handicapped FAI class and therefore are not being left without a home. *Thank you for creating this class, but please reconsider whether including those gliders make sense.

2C

There is no national Handicapped FAI class.
Standards may have some limited handicapping next year. 15 meter will
not.
We may have one in the future, but we don't have one yet.

John Cochrane