New Class for US Nationals

On Nov 9, 11:43*am, Kevin Christner wrote:
And the Ventus and LS6 will have a significant advantage at this years Mifflin Nationals if their are a few ridge days. *I also wonder if you will ever get enough "modern" gliders to have two classes if the Ventus and LS6 are considered "club" gliders.

Given the handicaps, I'll keep my 20, thanks.

A well flown Ka-8 will kill all the glass on a ridge day. Ron
Schwartz in a 1-26 will eat the Ka-8 and spit out the wing pins,
provided he can make the transitions.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

UH After 98% of racing pilots voted for club class gliders drivers to be considered for US Team, we had 2 years of waiting period before this could be implemented . Meantime RC quietly expands list to LS-6 and this year quietly to Ventus.(without asking anybody,without waiting period) It is very disappointing that RC member showed up in Parowan Sports Nationals with Ventus as a big surprise of new extended club class list ! RW

Who is RC member flying the Ventus?
Seems like you are trying to keep competition away.
You should be more worried about the guy in th Ka-6 than the guy in the Ventus.
What poll are you quoting?

This assumes there is no difficulty in crossing the gaps or getting on course. Personally (having owned a Ka8) I would not want to be attempting to cross the seven sisters with the wind 25kts WNW and a 4k cloud base. Killer ridge day, the low performers might not make it onto the course.

2C

On Nov 9, 12:50*pm, Kevin Christner wrote:
This assumes there is no difficulty in crossing the gaps or getting on course. *Personally (having owned a Ka8) I would not want to be attempting to cross the seven sisters with the wind 25kts WNW and a 4k cloud base. *Killer ridge day, the low performers might not make it onto the course.

2C

Every handicapped class has this problem. Handicaps are fair on
average, but some days the nimbus has to cross a gap the 1-26 does not
have to cross, and on other days the 1-26 simply can't stay up. The
mean is right, the variance is greater.

We made a major improvement by splitting the sports class in two. Now
we're not flying 1-26 vs. Nimbus 4.

If you think that the handicap groups are still too wide, then either

1) bring us lots more gliders, so we can have narrower handicap groups
but more than 3 gliders per "class." RW's pure club class can happen
if 12 gliders below 1.0 start showing up so we can have 3 classes.

2) Go fly FAI classes. The 15 meter class is basically a one-design
class at the moment. 27 and V2.

John Cochrane
John Cochrane

Any changes/enhancements being made to Winscore to handle the two classes or will the scorer have to manually enter handicaps?

On Nov 9, 1:50*pm, Kevin Christner wrote:
This assumes there is no difficulty in crossing the gaps or getting on course. *Personally (having owned a Ka8) I would not want to be attempting to cross the seven sisters with the wind 25kts WNW and a 4k cloud base. *Killer ridge day, the low performers might not make it onto the course.

2C

Chuckle

I think your imagination is getting the better of you.

What John said, plus:

1. The CD has advisors. They have a responsibility to call and open
a task that meets the criteria "fair and safe".

2. There are about a thousand other things a CD would think of before
sending a low performance fleet across the 7 mtns on a 4K day, no
matter what the wind.

What happens when the task is up & down Shade, Jacks and Tussey? The
Ka-8 goes about 72 mph and gets scored for 104 mph. I go about 100
mph... and get scored for 90.

My experience is that handicap racing is a blast when the total spread
is about 6% or less. Roughly that's my ASW-20 down to about an LS-4,
or my ASW-20 up to an 18m ship. If the range gets any wider than
that, it gets much more haphazard.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Wednesday, 7 November 2012 12:21:57 UTC-7, wrote:
The US Rules Subcommittee has added Club Class as a national championship class starting in 2013. The plan is to co locate with Sports.

Generally described, subject to usual wordsmithing and refinement, Club will be gliders with a handicap of .898(similar to what Worlds does except letting in LS-6 and Ventus 1) and all lower performance gliders. This means we extend beyond what WGC does on the low end to let everybody be able to play. No water ballast will be used.

"Modern" Sports will allow anybody to be in this class but handicap limit will be .940. Gliders below that performance may enter but will not receive the full handicap benefit and tasking considerations will not reflect their performance. No water ballast will be used.

This concept allows common std ships like Discus etc and ships like 20's to decide which class they would like to enter.

The rules will provide for assigned tasks in both Modern Sports and Club, subject to task setter evaluation of the fleet in the class.

If we do not get 12 in Club and Modern Sports, the contest reverts to traditional Sports only.

Final numbers and rules text will be a few weeks away using the normal rules process.

Final approval will be at the SSA BOD winter meeting in February.

It is expected that the US Team committee will use Club results going forward to select the Club team. This has not yet been confirmed by the USTC.

We are making this announcement in advance to allow affected pilots more time to plan.

If we waited through the full process, it would be only 3 months from approval to the race.

Full details of the proposed rules will be available as part of the Rules Change Summary due to be published on 12/22/12.

This will require re doing entries after the rule becomes effective. Thanks to Karl and Iris for putting up with this extra work. It would be helpful to them if you advise what class you intend to fly in.

For the Rules Committee

UH

RC Chair

Thanks RC! I believe this is a good move and with the priority on participation should increase participation.

Ron Gleason

Here's my 2 cents worth of comments on this subject:

1. IGC Club Class is intended to allow racing between gliders within a
narrow range of handicaps. The reason for the narrow range is to
allow handicapped competition to work across all types of tasks, in
particular, assigned speed tasks. Increasing the range of handicaps
puts the gliders at the low end of the list at a disadvantage (despite
the "better" handicap) when assigned tasks are called on days with
significant wind.

2. Viewing Club Class as an appendage to Sports Class pretty much
guarantees assigned speed tasks will almost never be called, which
sort of defeats the purpose.

Having owned, and occasionally raced, a DG-101, DG-303, Ventus B, and
LAK-17A, I can say the Ventus (15M) was far closer in overall
capability to the LAK-17A (15M) than to the DG-101. An IGC-style Club
Class, with assigned speed tasks, where I could actually feel
competitive in a Std Cirrus or DG-100, would draw me back into
racing. An MAT and TAT laden subset of Sports Class, not so much...

Marc

Sounds good, now I can fly the Cherokee onto the US Club Class team! Assuming of course that the USTC adopts the winner of this new class for team selection instead of sticking with their current list.

Will the same Modern/Club split apply to regional Sports Class contests, assuming there are enough entries?

I'm looking forward to the full list of Rule changes for next year, including Std. Class Nationals handicapping and if there will be a 13.5 Meter Nationals. Then I'll be able to plan out the rest of my Summer.

On Friday, November 9, 2012 4:12:53 PM UTC-5, Tony wrote:
Sounds good, now I can fly the Cherokee onto the US Club Class team! Assuming of course that the USTC adopts the winner of this new class for team selection instead of sticking with their current list. Will the same Modern/Club split apply to regional Sports Class contests, assuming there are enough entries? I'm looking forward to the full list of Rule changes for next year, including Std. Class Nationals handicapping and if there will be a 13.5 Meter Nationals. Then I'll be able to plan out the rest of my Summer.

Organizers in regionals can split groups in whatever way works best for their entries. That's how we had a 2 seat class in R2N. Yes they could follow Modern/Club.
Don't hold your calendar for 13.5 Nationals. Club is only new class for 2013.
UH