New Class for US Nationals

On Nov 13, 10:26*pm, wrote:

Your proposal may be the best way to go. Who can say for sure? But after all this discussion, it's still not clear to me why the US should go outside the existing FAI rules.

As a Club Class competitor, I'd really be chapped to know the pilot who beat me and made the World Team was flying a sailplane not qualified to fly in the Worlds.


How will you feel when you drive all the way across country to the
sports class contest, and then get sent home because 8 people with
just the right gliders didn't show up? Ask the PW5 guys how this
feels.

How would you feel, if you were a new pilot, flew a regionals, found
this great ship to buy, went to club nationals, but they sent you home
because your ASW20B, Schweitzer 1-35, HP 18 or American-made
sparrowhawk isn't on a list maintained by a commission of
international volunteers that meets once a year in Switzerland?

How would you feel if 10 gliders showed up, but 3 of them were like
that, so everybody got sent home?

How would you feel if you got sent home, but then they release the
club class list for Finland, and your ASW20 B is now on it?

The FAI rules are designed to run club class world contests, in
Europe, based on gliders available at European clubs. There is no
reason to expect those rules to work for the US.

SSA, please give this a good hard look.

I can assure you, days and days have been spent looking at this,
looking through all the angles, reviewing the turnout data from all
the club class regionals, thinking through all the ways that bright
ideas can blow up.

John Cochrane


Ben

At 15:02 14 November 2012, John Cochrane wrote:
On Nov 13, 10:26=A0pm, wrote:

Your proposal may be the best way to go. Who can say for sure? But
after
=
all this discussion, it's still not clear to me why the US should go
outsid=
e the existing FAI rules.

As a Club Class competitor, I'd really be chapped to know the pilot who
b=
eat me and made the World Team was flying a sailplane not qualified to
fly
=
in the Worlds.


How will you feel when you drive all the way across country to the
sports class contest, and then get sent home because 8 people with
just the right gliders didn't show up? Ask the PW5 guys how this
feels.

How would you feel, if you were a new pilot, flew a regionals, found
this great ship to buy, went to club nationals, but they sent you home
because your ASW20B, Schweitzer 1-35, HP 18 or American-made
sparrowhawk isn't on a list maintained by a commission of
international volunteers that meets once a year in Switzerland?

How would you feel if 10 gliders showed up, but 3 of them were like
that, so everybody got sent home?

How would you feel if you got sent home, but then they release the
club class list for Finland, and your ASW20 B is now on it?

The FAI rules are designed to run club class world contests, in
Europe, based on gliders available at European clubs. There is no
reason to expect those rules to work for the US.

SSA, please give this a good hard look.

I can assure you, days and days have been spent looking at this,
looking through all the angles, reviewing the turnout data from all
the club class regionals, thinking through all the ways that bright
ideas can blow up.

John Cochrane


John your lack of understanding confounds me- IGC Club class is defined by
a handicap/performance range (which the 20b, ventus and LS6 are not in) -
not a list of gliders - the IGC list can be added to if the glider falls
within that handicap / performance range and is competing in a championship
i.e. a Slingsby Vega is not on the IGC list but could be added to it as it
falls within the handicap range used. That range of handicaps has been
fairly static for a number of years and has not changed at every
championship as you seem to state. Thus a 1-35 and HP18 would probably fall
within that range -a Sparrowhawk I doubt.
Your analogy with PW5 Class is entirely bogus as there are vastly superior
numbers of potential club class ships out there, even in the US.
Does lack of numbers stop you running an Open class comp?

Just to clear up some misconceptions with regards to the IGC Club class definition. From the current FAI sporting code (http://www.fai.org/igc-documents):

START QUOTE

FAI Sporting Code
Section 3 – Gliding
CLASS D (gliders)
including Class DM (motorgliders)
....
Chapter 6
GLIDER CLASSES and
INTERNATIONAL COMPETITIONS
....
6.2 HANDICAPPING
The purpose of handicapping shall be to equalise the performance of competing gliders as far as possible. The handicap values used shall be directly proportional to the expected cross-country speeds of gliders in typical soaring conditions for the competition concerned.

If handicapping is to be used, it shall be applied directly to the speed or distance achieved: for finishers, to the speed only, for non-finishers, to the distance only. Competitors completing the task shall not be given less than full distance points, and competitors not completing the task shall not
be given more than full distance points. Any list of handicaps proposed for a competition must be approved by the IGC.
....
6.5.8 Club Class
The purpose of the Club Class is to preserve the value of older high performance gliders, to provide inexpensive but high quality international championships, and to enable pilots who do not have access to gliders of the highest standard of performance to take part in contests at the highest levels.
a. ENTRY The only limitation on entry of a glider into a Club Class competition is that it is within the agreed range of handicap factors for the competition.
b. BALLAST Disposable ballast is not permitted.
c. SCORING Championship scoring formulas shall include handicap factors.
d. WING LOADING Wing loading shall not exceed 38 kg/m2.
....
FAI Sporting Code
Annex A to Section 3 – Gliding
RULES FOR WORLD AND CONTINENTAL
SOARING CHAMPIONSHIPS
CLASS D (gliders)
Including Class DM (motorgliders)
....
1.3 CHAMPIONSHIP CLASSES
1.3.1 The Championships shall consist of the one or more classes as described in the main body of Section 3 of the Sporting Code, Chapter 6, and as listed in the Local Procedures.
....
4.2 MAXIMUM TAKE OFF MASS
4.2.1 The following Maximum Take Off Mass (MTOM) shall be enforced:
....
d. Club Class – No ballast permitted and MTOM limited to the lowest of:
1. Maximum wing loading 38 Kg/m2
2. Maximum certified Take Off Mass without water according to Type Certificate Data Sheet (TCDS).
....
8.2 COMMON RULES
....
8.2.4 Handicaps
Handicapping shall be used in the Club Class and may be used in the 20 metre Multi-seat Class in Continental Championships only. Organisers shall state in the Local Procedures if Handicapping is to be used in the 20 metre Multi-seat Class.
a. Handicaps shall be taken from the valid IGC Handicap list or any other list approved by the IGC Bureau for the specific Championships.
b. The Organisers shall publish a list of all competitors with their handicaps before the beginning of the Championships.
c. Handicaps shall be applied according to 8.3.2.
....
Appendix 3
IGC Handicap Lists
The IGC Handicap Committee is responsible for the evaluation, review and publication of glider handicaps. The IGC Handicap lists consists of:

IGC Club Class Handicap List
IGC 20 metre Multi-seat Class Handicap list

The handicaps for each class are published on the FAI website.
http://www.fai.org/fai-documents

Effective date for changes to the handicap list is April 1st each year.

General rules for the IGC Club Class:
Only Single Seat Gliders with a handicap index of 1,09 or lower are eligible.
Retrofitting a glider with retractable landing gear increases the Handicap by 0.02.
Retrofitting a glider with winglets increases the Handicap by 0.01.
The pilot is responsible for providing documentation to prove that his glider will be operated within the legal weight limits.
The handicap is based on the performance at a stated glider reference weight, which is based on a typical empty weight plus 110 kg. Where a glider is flown at a higher weight by necessity, the handicap will be increased by 0.005 for each 10 kg or part thereof that the glider exceeds the base handicap weight.

General rules for the IGC 20 metre Multi-seat Class Handicap list:
To be determined.

END QUOTE

The current official handicap range used by the IGC is 0.96 to 1.09 (see http://www.fai.org/downloads/igc/IGC...bClassList_V1). The last handicap range change was in 2006/2007, when the top limit was moved up from 1,07 to 1,09. This led to the addition of ASW 20 WL (15m), Discus 1, ASW 24 WL/24B WL, DG 400 (15m), SZD 55 and ASW 20 (15m) to the official IGC Club class handicap list.

Now the not so obvious actual implementation of the Club class: Have a look at

Section 3 - 6.5.8 Club Class - a. ENTRY The only limitation on entry of a glider into a Club Class competition is that it is within the agreed range of handicap factors for the competition.

and then at

Annex A to Section 3 - 8.2.4 Handicaps
Handicapping shall be used in the Club Class ...

a. Handicaps shall be taken from the valid IGC Handicap list or any other list approved by the IGC Bureau for the specific Championships.
b. The Organisers shall publish a list of all competitors with their handicaps before the beginning of the Championships.

So yes, the official IGC Club Class handicap range is 0.96 to 1.09 but if the glider of your choice is ostensibly within that range but not on the official IGC Handicap list you are out of luck for a Category 1 event (Worlds/Continentals)... Unless the IGC has approved a different list for the particular you want to fly in...

This is the case for the 2012 Club Class WGC in Argentina this January, see http://www.fai.org/downloads/igc/IGC...ap_list_ARG_V2. They did not change the handicap range but did add the Std. Astir G102 & SZD-51 Junior to allow these gliders types to participate (even decent Club Class gliders are of limited supply in Argentina).

This illustrates the point that unless the glider of your choice is by name on an approved IGC Club Class handicap list (general or event specific) it won't matter if it falls within the predefined range, it won't be allowed to participate in an FAI/IGC Category 1 event.

The IGC maintains a very short handicap list that only includes the most common glider types in that handicap range, 51 total but in reality only some 15 or so truly different glider types. The current list is, as mentioned, Eurocentric with not a single non-European type on it.

At the 3 previous South American Continental Championships in Argentina 8.2..4 a. was used to approve the Argentine Handicap system to run 3 handicapped classes of distinct handicap ranges, have a look at the results from the last one this past January:

Standard Class - http://igcrankings.fai.org/CompPage.php?compid=1436
15m Class - http://igcrankings.fai.org/CompPage.php?compid=1437
Open Class - http://igcrankings.fai.org/CompPage.php?compid=1438

As you can see the glider list for Std/15m looked more like a Club Class list, this was a fully sanctioned FAI/IGC Continental Championship (Category 1) to which the full FAI/IGC sporting code (competition rules) applied.

Markus Graeber
IGC Delegate - Colombia

Link to South American Continental Championship Standard Class results got chewed up:

Standard Class - http://igcrankings.fai.org/CompPage.php?compid=1436

To put the handicaps into perspective, the IGC list is generally based on the German handicap list which includes pretty much anything flying incl. ETA, EB-29 etc. If the rest of the ASW 20s and the Ventus 1 were to be included in the IGC list they would likely get a 1.10, the LS-6 a 1.11, not an earth shattering extension of the current IGC handicap top of 1.09... Latest generation 15m ships would likely be in the 1.14 range...

Markus

Again I want to emphasize my personal Thank You to the rules committee for officially sanctioning the Club Class concept here in the U.S.A. This is a complicated issue and I am certain that much thought and discussion has been spent addressing this issue.

I, for one, do not have a problem making limited additions and subtractions from a club class list of gliders. OR, conceptually, to/from a range of handicaps. Lest it escape anyone's notice, it was our conception of "Club" Class/"Modern" Class split of US Sports Class that was named as such and proven out in Moriarty, NM back in 2010. Yes, we cut off particpation of the upper end of the handicap range. But we did so to make for better racing.

My, and I think other's, big problem is with the opening of the RANGE of handicaps allowed. It is too broad to really offer the benefits of Club Class as seen around the world.

What has proven so popular around the world, and there is absolutely no evidence to say it will not work as well here in the US, is the idea of "limited handicap racing". This is, in fact, what you're trying to do with Std Class by limiting the benefits of handicapping to .95.

Defining the US Club class as something roughly around the Range of the IGC concept WILL bring older, less costly ships into the competition scene - many of them in the hands of good, dedicated pilots.

The currently proposed conception of Club Class has not been tailored to aim at getting these ships into the competition scene. Sure is it easy to parrot the "run what ya'brung" line to promote the "racing fairness" of US Sports Class as a vibrant competition class, but it is not enough to entice many into the game. A fairer, more tailored racing experience for a limited range of older ships can do that.

It is the the Limited Handicap Range that makes Club Class work so well. By opening up the range you dilute the benefits you are hopefully trying to capture - good, fairer handicapped racing.

Thank you again for your work on this contentious issue.

Tim McAllister EY

If I show up with my 1-26 on regional Club Class competition, and accept that my glider is handicapped at 1.09, will they let me fly ?

Master Tim has the point.

Following all the rules of the IGC the South African club class recently
was extended to include the Ventus 1 and similar performance ships. FAI
approved list and handicaps and all. The motivation being that the
Standard Class was dying with too few entries to make a race, and a
significant portion of the fleet not competitive in any class.

So - the news is that we now have no standard class racing at all.
(there are only a couple of ASW27s and 24s) Everyone is either in 18m
(Lots of JS1 and Ventus 2, one ASG29 and a couple of LAK17b)
Club class is now an ASW20, Ventus 1, ASW28 class. All the older ships -
including my Std Cirrus are out of contention. The tasks that suit the
higher performance ships make it pointless being there in a 1970s
Standard class ship.

Handicapped racing needs all the competitors to be of reasonably similar
performance - otherwise the "race" becomes so spread out and fractious
that the fun and fairness goes missing.

Set tasks that the Libelle and Cirrus and Pheobus are suited to - and
the Ventus/ASW20 drivers complain it is too short and does not afford
them a chance to race. Set it to suit them and you get situations where
the next thermal is out of range of the first generation, and they
complain that despite the handicap they are excluded from the results by
physics.

So - in our case we still have a limited range of handicaps competing,
but entries are now clustered around the new hot ships.

The first generation ships have retired from racing. But there is
slightly more participation. Does not help when it comes to flying in
Club Class worlds.


On 2012/11/15 5:33 AM, wrote:
Again I want to emphasize my personal Thank You to the rules committee for officially sanctioning the Club Class concept here in the U.S.A. This is a complicated issue and I am certain that much thought and discussion has been spent addressing this issue.

I, for one, do not have a problem making limited additions and subtractions from a club class list of gliders. OR, conceptually, to/from a range of handicaps. Lest it escape anyone's notice, it was our conception of "Club" Class/"Modern" Class split of US Sports Class that was named as such and proven out in Moriarty, NM back in 2010. Yes, we cut off particpation of the upper end of the handicap range. But we did so to make for better racing.

My, and I think other's, big problem is with the opening of the RANGE of handicaps allowed. It is too broad to really offer the benefits of Club Class as seen around the world.

What has proven so popular around the world, and there is absolutely no evidence to say it will not work as well here in the US, is the idea of "limited handicap racing". This is, in fact, what you're trying to do with Std Class by limiting the benefits of handicapping to .95.

Defining the US Club class as something roughly around the Range of the IGC concept WILL bring older, less costly ships into the competition scene - many of them in the hands of good, dedicated pilots.

The currently proposed conception of Club Class has not been tailored to aim at getting these ships into the competition scene. Sure is it easy to parrot the "run what ya'brung" line to promote the "racing fairness" of US Sports Class as a vibrant competition class, but it is not enough to entice many into the game. A fairer, more tailored racing experience for a limited range of older ships can do that.

It is the the Limited Handicap Range that makes Club Class work so well. By opening up the range you dilute the benefits you are hopefully trying to capture - good, fairer handicapped racing.

Thank you again for your work on this contentious issue.

Tim McAllister EY


--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771

In the last 4 Club Class World/European Champs there has never been a glider in the top 5 that had a base handicap above 1.01 (1.01 is e.g. a Jantar Std. 3/LS 1F/ASW 19 - 1.02 with WL)

The best placing of a glider with a handicap near the top of the permited range (1.07+) has been 6th & 10th (ASW 24 in 2010/2008 - same pilot, he's now flying a DG 100). Best placing for an ASW 20 (1.08/1.09 with WL) has been 19th (2011), for a Discus (1.07/1.08 with WL) 18th (2008).

The sites have been your typical run of the mill European flat land/mixed terrain sites with Rieti as a true mountain site in 2008. It should be safe to assume that they had anything from strong to weak thermal conditions with typical mountain flying in Rieti. National results for Club Class e.g. in Germany will show similar results.

So statistically speaking you do not want to be at the high performance end of the Club class, the ideal performance range seems to be bottom to middle, let's say 0.98 to 1.02 with WL.

I can't see how that would change with a Ventus or LS-6 (or the remaining ASW 20s). How much more performance will a Ventus or LS-6 give you over a first generation ASW-20 to make it a game changer in your normal and statistically relevant range of conditions taking the increased handicap into account?

The question might be how much people initially migrate to higher performance ships when they become allowed because they perceive an advantage even though that might only be the case in extreme conditions that are statistically irrelevant and get absorbed by the handicap disadvantage during your "normal" days.

Here the numbers:

Europeans Club Class 2011
Nitra, Slovak Republic

1 - Std. Cirrus 1.00
2 - LS 1F 1.01
3 - Jantar Std. 3 1.01
4 - Libelle 0.98
5 - ASW 15 0.98
6 - Std. Cirrus 1.00
7 - 18 see above 0.98 - 1.01
19 - ASW 20 1.08
20 - Discus B 1.07

Worlds Club Class 2010
Prievidza, Slovakia

1 - Libelle 0.98
2 - Libelle 0.98
3 - ASW 15 0.98
4 - Hornet WL 1.01
5 - Jantar Std. 3M (Brawo) 1.01
6 - ASW 24 1.07
7 - 20 Libelle/Cirrus/Jantar/LS 1F 0.98 - 1.01
except
14 - LS 4 1.04
18 - ASW 19B WL 1.02

Europeans Club Class 2009
Pociunai, Lithuania

1 - LS 1F 1.01
2 - ASW 19 WL 1.02
3 - LS 1F 1.01
4 - Jantar Std. 3M (Brawo) 1.01
5 - Jantar Std. 1.00
6 - ASW 19 1.01
7 - LS 4a 1.04
8 - Jantar Std. 3 1.01
9 - LS 4 1.04
10 - LS 7 WL 1.07
11 - 20 Cirrus/Jantar/ASW 19/LS 1D/F 0.98 - 1.01
21 - Discus B WL 1.08

Worlds Club Class 2008
Rieti, Italy
1 - Hornet 1.00
2 - Std. Cirrus 1.00
3 - Std. Cirrus 1.00
4 - Std. Cirrus 1.00
5 - LS 1F 1.01
6 - Jantar Std. 3M (Brawo) 1.01
7 - 9 LS 1F/Cirrus/Jantar 0.98 - 1.01
10 - ASW 24 1.07
11 - 18 DG 100/Cirrus/ASW 19/LS 1F 0.98 - 1.01
18 - Discus 1.07
20 - ASW 19 1.01

Markus

On Friday, November 9, 2012 11:43:44 AM UTC-5, Kevin Christner wrote:
And the Ventus and LS6 will have a significant advantage at this years Mifflin Nationals if their are a few ridge days. I also wonder if you will ever get enough "modern" gliders to have two classes if the Ventus and LS6 are considered "club" gliders.



After 98% of racing pilots voted for club class gliders drivers to be considered for US Team, we had 2 years of waiting period before this could be implemented .



Meantime RC quietly expands list to LS-6 and this year quietly to



Ventus.(without asking anybody,without waiting period)



It is very disappointing that RC member showed up in Parowan Sports Nationals



with Ventus as a big surprise of new extended club class list !



RW

so we'll be seeing you there?