An interesting trial flight attempt...

wrote:
Screw the FAA, and lawyers. Useless waste of carbon, most of the time.

The FAA doesn't really care if we put FLARM-like devices in our gliders.
The FCC doesn't care as long as they (properly) use an unlicensed
portion of the frequency spectrum. The lawyers will do what the lawyers
will do, but only if pilots, or their survivors, ask them to.

How about some smart person come up with a FLARM clone that will work
in the US (i.e. suitable frequencies), and would intergrate with the
FLARM display or software like MCU and SN10 that already support it.

There is nothing preventing anyone in the US from doing this, except
available money, time, minuscule market, etc. I (and others) could hack
together a prototype using off the shelf components in a few months, but
that would still be months of effort (and tens of thousands of dollars)
short of being a production device. Perhaps someone will be willing do
this all for the love of soaring (like the FLARM folks did), but they
certainly won't be doing to to make a profit. You got $50,000 to
$100,000? I can find someone to design it.

Make it portable so we can hide it from the feds. Keep it small and
unobtrusive. Stick it behind the panel, hook it up to your PDA or
computer, and bug all your glider buddies to get one. I bet if it was
priced right a lot of XC and racers would get one. I know I would.

Yes, we're talking a really hot market, maybe as much as 500 units over
the next 5 years. And, you can get those sales if it is priced "right"
in glider pilot terms, which means essentially no profit. I expect
someone will jump in there any day now...

Safety is always about what you do, not what someone else behind a desk
does...

Nobody is stopping you...


Marc

Dave,
How big and what is the life span of this motor driving battery?
Thanks for sharing all that interesting info.

GK

There is nothing preventing anyone in the US from doing this, except
available money, time, minuscule market, etc. I (and others) could hack
together a prototype using off the shelf components in a few months, but
that would still be months of effort (and tens of thousands of dollars)
short of being a production device. Perhaps someone will be willing do
this all for the love of soaring (like the FLARM folks did), but they
certainly won't be doing to to make a profit. You got $50,000 to
$100,000? I can find someone to design it.

Yes, we're talking a really hot market, maybe as much as 500 units over
the next 5 years. And, you can get those sales if it is priced "right"
in glider pilot terms, which means essentially no profit. I expect
someone will jump in there any day now...

Marc, by your math (admittedly back of the envelope), if 200 glider
pilots each chipped in $500, someone could design it? I know nothing
about the costs of production of such a device, but say (worst case)
another $500 per unit? So for a grand those pilots would have a
working system. That's in my price range...

The obvious problem, of course, is that it only works if those 200
pilots all fly in the same area - so you have to convince the rest of
the glider pilots in the local area (or racing scene) to pony up the
$500 to get one. Or wait! Get SRA to make it optionally mandatory at
SSA sanctionned contests! Worked for ELTs! Maybe make a bunch of them
and rent them to pilots at contests? A couple of avoided collisions
and I bet there would be increased interest in the device by a lot of
glider pilots.

The point is - I see lots of guys sticking expensive transponders in
their ships which (in my opinion) provide little protection from most
mid-air collision threats, while there is little being done in
exploiting more useful avenues.

Perhaps a market for flight schools, that have a lot of power trainers
working VFR in busy airspace? (again - all xponder equipped but no TCAS
or warning by ATC if not on ATC freq).

Just saying it can't be done guarantees it won't be done. And just
thinking/talking about it doesn't make it happen, I know - but you have
to start somewhere.

Cheers,

Kirk

wrote:
Marc, by your math (admittedly back of the envelope), if 200 glider
pilots each chipped in $500, someone could design it? I know nothing
about the costs of production of such a device, but say (worst case)
another $500 per unit? So for a grand those pilots would have a
working system. That's in my price range...

You could get 200 US glider pilots to chip in $500 on something that
won't increase their L/D? You must be quite a salesman 8^)

FLARM costs around ~500 Euros, so it is certainly possible. The most
sensible thing is to license the FLARM design for production/sale in the
US. Payment of a suitable license fee, and indemnification against the
evils of the US court system would likely bypass their liability
concerns. It would be necessary to swap in a wireless module using FCC
acceptable frequencies.

An entirely new system would require a significant amount of hardware
design, software development, and testing. Paying for this would push
the amortized costs over even 500 units beyond your price range. This
would only work with an essentially volunteer effort.

In either case, a testing lab would need to be hired to do FCC Part 15
conformance verification as an "intentional radiator". This is way
outside of my area, but I would guess that the cost for this alone is
somewhere in the $20K to $50K range.

The point is - I see lots of guys sticking expensive transponders in
their ships which (in my opinion) provide little protection from most
mid-air collision threats, while there is little being done in
exploiting more useful avenues.

Perhaps transponders aren't useful in your area, but they are in mine.
I have had more surprise encounters with commercial and military
aircraft, than I have with other gliders.

I also suspect that FLARM won't do much to help where I'm most concerned
about a collision with another glider, the ridge running down the White
and Inyo mountains near the CA/NV border. FLARM advertises an effective
range of 2-3 km, or 1 to 1.5 nm. Given a head-on approach between two
gliders, each running at a TAS of 150 knots, you'll be lucky to get 10
seconds of warning. Might work for an ex-fighter pilot, but that's not
much time for someone like me...

Perhaps a market for flight schools, that have a lot of power trainers
working VFR in busy airspace? (again - all xponder equipped but no TCAS
or warning by ATC if not on ATC freq).

ADS-B is a much better solution for this, particularly with the ground
stations in place (as they are now on much of the east coast), which
will allow ATC to see you. If you have a traffic display (which could
be implemented using a PDA), not only will you see other ADS-B equipped
aircraft, you'll also see Mode C/S equipped aircraft through the data link.

Just saying it can't be done guarantees it won't be done. And just
thinking/talking about it doesn't make it happen, I know - but you have
to start somewhere.

True, but to get much farther, it'll take time and money. Any
volunteers? I can help with the software and bad advice...

Marc

The motor TBO is 900 hours after which it needs new bearings.
Its about 57 hp and 8" across, and hollow.
Best Regards, Dave

Dave,
I think he was asking about the batteries. Any idea on the number of
charge cycles and approximate replacement cost?

-Tom

You're wrong there, Marc. I'm not an ex-fighter pilot, and I had this
warning from my Flarm on the ridge. I took an evasive action and we didn't
collide. 10 sec is a lot when something is yelling at you.

Bert
TW

"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message
. com...

I also suspect that FLARM won't do much to help where I'm most concerned
about a collision with another glider, the ridge running down the White
and Inyo mountains near the CA/NV border. FLARM advertises an effective
range of 2-3 km, or 1 to 1.5 nm. Given a head-on approach between two
gliders, each running at a TAS of 150 knots, you'll be lucky to get 10
seconds of warning. Might work for an ex-fighter pilot, but that's not
much time for someone like me...

Bert Willing wrote:
"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message
. com...
I also suspect that FLARM won't do much to help where I'm most concerned
about a collision with another glider, the ridge running down the White
and Inyo mountains near the CA/NV border. FLARM advertises an effective
range of 2-3 km, or 1 to 1.5 nm. Given a head-on approach between two
gliders, each running at a TAS of 150 knots, you'll be lucky to get 10
seconds of warning. Might work for an ex-fighter pilot, but that's not
much time for someone like me...

You're wrong there, Marc. I'm not an ex-fighter pilot, and I had this
warning from my Flarm on the ridge. I took an evasive action and we
didn't collide. 10 sec is a lot when something is yelling at you.

Real world experience definitely trumps my speculation.

By the way, if anyone here in the US is interested, for another project
I've found multiple sources of FCC approved (no conformance testing
required, if used with specific antennas) 900 MHz RF modules with as
much as 20 mile line of sight range using 1/2 wave whip antennas. There
might be a way to do this without a huge up-front hardware and
certification costs. Software and testing would still be a big effort...

Marc

The batteries should last 11 years and cost 12k Euros to replace.
Best Regards, Dave

wrote:
The batteries should last 11 years and cost 12k Euros to replace.
Best Regards, Dave

I'd been reading e-mails from a Yahoo group about replacing batteries in
PDAs and got confused for a moment =:-O

How many charge/discharge cycles do they figure?

Shawn