The 11 best things at the 2015 15m/Std Class Nationals at Harris Hill

On 06/08/2015 23:42, Andy Blackburn wrote:
On Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 2:33:31 PM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:
It is fun! We should have an optional "show finish" line for contests where a real finish line is impractical.

John Cochrane BB

I proposed this several years ago - you could have a 2 mile ring at 1000' as an initial point to a 50' line finish for timing purposes. You just need to ensure that people are coming from generally the same direction.

9B

We tried something similar on one task of the SA leg of the Sailplane
Grand Prix. We set a control turn point with a MINIMUM hight about 5km
out on the final leg. I believe the concept has merit both from a safety
and spectator perspectives.

The SGP rules encourage turnpoints with a maximum hight to promote
spectator points, a turn point with minimum hight was regarded as novel
but allowed. But some pilots missed the minimum hight and there was a
dispute over the penalties imposed. So we did not use it again during
that comp.

Having seen the SGP style contest, I think a "start gate closing time"
to curtail "start line roulette" and would improve spectator value,
reduce outlandings and consequential damage and make life easier for crews.

Well said IAN! +1

So somebody who has difficulty climbing out, or who takes a relight would get zero for the day because of the "start gate closing time"?

P9

Yes! Absolutely yes!!! If you can't start by the end of the allowed time you will be losing time because the clock has started and you are not on course.

And in exchange: 1) the gliders that start on time will be competing in more of a "race" (not "time trailing") 2) there is much less start gate roulette, 3) circling around in a big pack waiting for others to start first is reduced, 4) starting and then sneaking back to restart again (often head on thru other starting gliders) is reduced, 5) etc, etc. All of this loitering around and restarting is, IMO, a highly dangerous time in a sailplane contest. I dislike it. I want to use as much of the day as possible to race on the defined track with my competitors. Not play around doing aerobatics in the start cycle cylinder at close proximity all afternoon.

Everyone will have to deal with a circumstance of being late occasionally. Remember that opening a start window (just as with opening a start gate today) only happens after the CD has polled the advisors and been told that the task is fair and safe. Pilots struggling or low will have a chance to make it known. The window will be open long enough to relight and get back up. But their needs to be a limit to that charity.

If you are at a formula one race and your engine doesn't start, they do not wait for you to change your engine. They race and you don't.

If you are in a sailboat race and you are late to the starting line you are going to lose some time. Good luck. Try and catch up.

This rule makes the sport of soaring "more like" racing. Today it is really not racing unless you have happened to start together and you are on an assigned task.

OLC is great for free, open start times.

And remember this rule is not a single start time like Sailplane Grand Prix.. Their is still a significant range (say 1 hour, or 30 minutes) in which you can "choose" to start. It's just not ENDLESS (ridiculous) anymore.

I would love to see this adopted in SSA contests. It makes great sense to me.

Sean
7T

Not a zero for the day...but losing time if the window has opened, yes. Remember, the window only opens if the CD, advisors, and pilots have agreed to do so.

P9,

No, you would not necessarily get a zero for the day if you are not able to start by the end of the time window. That said, if you can't start by the end of the allowed time (perhaps one hour), you will be losing time because the clock has started and you are not on course. One hour is plenty of time to relight, perhaps 2x, etc.

And in exchange: 1) the gliders that start on time will be competing in more of a meaningful race (not "time trailing") 2) there is much less start gate roulette, 3) circling around in a big pack waiting for others to start first is reduced, 4) starting and then sneaking back to restart again (often head on thru other starting gliders) is reduced, 5) the time on task will become longer for a given day 6) etc, etc. All of this loitering around and restarting is, IMO, a highly dangerous time in a sailplane contest. I dislike it. I want to use as much of the day as possible to race on the defined race track with my competitors. Not play around doing aerobatics in the start cycle cylinder at close proximity all afternoon.

Everyone will have to deal with a circumstance of being tardy (starting after the clock has already started) occasionally. Remember that opening a start window (just as with opening a start gate today) only happens after the CD has polled the advisors and been told that the task is fair and safe. Pilots struggling or low will have a chance to make it known. The window will be open long enough to relight and get back up. But there needs to be a limit to that charity.

If you are at a formula one race and your engine doesn't start, they do not wait for you to change your engine. They race and you don't.

If you are in a sailboat race and you are late to the starting line you are going to lose some time. Good luck. Try and catch up.

This rule makes the sport of soaring "more like" racing. Today it is really not racing unless you have happened to start together and you are on an assigned task.

OLC is great for free, open start times.

And remember this rule is not a single start time like Sailplane Grand Prix.. There is still a significant range (say 1 hour, or 30 minutes) in which you can "choose" to start. It's just not ENDLESS (ridiculous) anymore.

I would love to see this adopted in SSA contests. It makes great sense to me.

Sean
7T

I would love to see this adopted in SSA contests. It makes great sense to me.

We tried to get some interest in this proposal a year or two ago. I had the same reaction -- on a reasonably consistent day in which most people can be ready to start, it would get us all out on course and end a lot of leeching and start roulette.

To be clear, the proposal is that the CD announces a "last start time" half hour or so after gate open. You can still start whenever you want, but if you start after last start time your start time is the last start time.

This was in part to accommodate the then groundswell for Grand Prix, as well as the big concern over gaggling and leeching that we see boiling up in the flarm debate. However, it died on the vine somehow with no interest. Perhaps we'll try again and see if anyone can be talked in to running a regional this way. A poll topic for sure.

John Cochrane BB

On Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 3:54:48 PM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:
I would love to see this adopted in SSA contests. It makes great sense to me.

We tried to get some interest in this proposal a year or two ago. I had the same reaction -- on a reasonably consistent day in which most people can be ready to start, it would get us all out on course and end a lot of leeching and start roulette.

To be clear, the proposal is that the CD announces a "last start time" half hour or so after gate open. You can still start whenever you want, but if you start after last start time your start time is the last start time.

This was in part to accommodate the then groundswell for Grand Prix, as well as the big concern over gaggling and leeching that we see boiling up in the flarm debate. However, it died on the vine somehow with no interest. Perhaps we'll try again and see if anyone can be talked in to running a regional this way. A poll topic for sure.

John Cochrane BB

I'd suggest a small modification that would make this more palatable: After the "last start time" expires, let's begin taxing the contestant at say 10% instead of 100%. That would be 1 second tax per 10 seconds transpired. It seems like 10% is enough to get most everyone out on course yet not completely shaft the poor sap who can't get up or has a relight or has an instrument problem and is late starting. I believe that I read a variation of this idea on a previous post - I think it was 9B.

Example: If you start 3 minutes late on a 300 minute task (assume thats the winners time on an AT or the AAT time...) then you are only taking a 1% penalty (if any penalty at all really) if you finish in 303 minutes and fly the same speed. 10 points on a 1000 point day. This of course entirely discounts the advantage of being 3 minutes behind a strong pilot, easy to catch at this range if you are in a position to do so.

Or....if you start 30 minutes late on a 300 minute task you only have a 10% penalty. 100 points. A more substantial penalty but, lets face it, 30 minutes (after 30 minutes of open time) is an eternity. If the majority of the class can start but you cannot for 30 minutes after a 30 minute window is agreed upon and opened, its not a rules problem.

The penalty for starting late is still fairly minuscule even if the task is only 150 minutes long. 10% for 15 minutes. And you still have the advantage of catching up to all the gliders ahead.

The point of the rule is to make it smart to get into a decent position and GO. Messing around is far less valuable as the end of the window approaches. If you play the game and get caught in a spot where you cannot start perfectly...TOUGH! You have to take an imperfect start or you wait around for one and risk loosing significant time. This is a beautiful solution in my eyes.

Also, this is how all other true RACING sports are played, with the added exceptional freedom of a 30 minute!!! window...AN ABSOLUTE ETERNITY!

The tax idea is just too complex. Its ticky-tacky. I don't like it. Sorry Andy. 30 minutes is plenty of time to start. Or go ahead and make the window 1 hour.

With that...are you onboard now with a start gate time limit considering how tiny the penalty of starting behind the window really is? Its not really ever 100% unless you stay in the start cylinder until sunset ;-). And with all the other advantages of forcing the field out on course sooner than they typically would be with the current free start rule (more racing, less dangerous interactions, less screwing around)...?

JOHN C: I feel that the start gate time limit should be used at nationals first because thats where the real problem is. No need to trail this rule at a regionals. Just as the boys (and girls) in Elmira went with Stealth Mode at the recent 15m nationals...we need a bold leader to take the bull by the horns and go for it. The current start anytime you want program: high speed flap 1 circling at 120 knots for 30-60 minutes with gliders leaving and entering from all directions, pulling spoilers and coming down thru the high speed gliders while looking at your stopwatch, every task, etc is pretty problematic. Personally, I would like to spend as much of that time flying better, longer tasks as possible. The way to do that is to take away the freedom to wait around indefinitely...and reasonably limit the start gate time window.

Sean
7T

On Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 9:03:21 PM UTC-4, Steve Koerner wrote:
On Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 3:54:48 PM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:
I would love to see this adopted in SSA contests. It makes great sense to me.

We tried to get some interest in this proposal a year or two ago. I had the same reaction -- on a reasonably consistent day in which most people can be ready to start, it would get us all out on course and end a lot of leeching and start roulette.

To be clear, the proposal is that the CD announces a "last start time" half hour or so after gate open. You can still start whenever you want, but if you start after last start time your start time is the last start time.

This was in part to accommodate the then groundswell for Grand Prix, as well as the big concern over gaggling and leeching that we see boiling up in the flarm debate. However, it died on the vine somehow with no interest.. Perhaps we'll try again and see if anyone can be talked in to running a regional this way. A poll topic for sure.

John Cochrane BB

I'd suggest a small modification that would make this more palatable: After the "last start time" expires, let's begin taxing the contestant at say 10% instead of 100%. That would be 1 second tax per 10 seconds transpired. It seems like 10% is enough to get most everyone out on course yet not completely shaft the poor sap who can't get up or has a relight or has an instrument problem and is late starting. I believe that I read a variation of this idea on a previous post - I think it was 9B.

On Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 9:58:48 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
Example: If you start 3 minutes late on a 300 minute task (assume thats the winners time on an AT or the AAT time...) then you are only taking a 1% penalty (if any penalty at all really) if you finish in 303 minutes and fly the same speed. 10 points on a 1000 point day. This of course entirely discounts the advantage of being 3 minutes behind a strong pilot, easy to catch at this range if you are in a position to do so.

Or....if you start 30 minutes late on a 300 minute task you only have a 10% penalty. 100 points. A more substantial penalty but, lets face it, 30 minutes (after 30 minutes of open time) is an eternity. If the majority of the class can start but you cannot for 30 minutes after a 30 minute window is agreed upon and opened, its not a rules problem.

The penalty for starting late is still fairly minuscule even if the task is only 150 minutes long. 10% for 15 minutes. And you still have the advantage of catching up to all the gliders ahead.

The point of the rule is to make it smart to get into a decent position and GO. Messing around is far less valuable as the end of the window approaches. If you play the game and get caught in a spot where you cannot start perfectly...TOUGH! You have to take an imperfect start or you wait around for one and risk loosing significant time. This is a beautiful solution in my eyes.

Also, this is how all other true RACING sports are played, with the added exceptional freedom of a 30 minute!!! window...AN ABSOLUTE ETERNITY!

The tax idea is just too complex. Its ticky-tacky. I don't like it. Sorry Andy. 30 minutes is plenty of time to start. Or go ahead and make the window 1 hour.

With that...are you onboard now with a start gate time limit considering how tiny the penalty of starting behind the window really is? Its not really ever 100% unless you stay in the start cylinder until sunset ;-). And with all the other advantages of forcing the field out on course sooner than they typically would be with the current free start rule (more racing, less dangerous interactions, less screwing around)...?

JOHN C: I feel that the start gate time limit should be used at nationals first because thats where the real problem is. No need to trail this rule at a regionals. Just as the boys (and girls) in Elmira went with Stealth Mode at the recent 15m nationals...we need a bold leader to take the bull by the horns and go for it. The current start anytime you want program: high speed flap 1 circling at 120 knots for 30-60 minutes with gliders leaving and entering from all directions, pulling spoilers and coming down thru the high speed gliders while looking at your stopwatch, every task, etc is pretty problematic. Personally, I would like to spend as much of that time flying better, longer tasks as possible. The way to do that is to take away the freedom to wait around indefinitely...and reasonably limit the start gate time window.

Sean
7T

On Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 9:03:21 PM UTC-4, Steve Koerner wrote:
On Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 3:54:48 PM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:
I would love to see this adopted in SSA contests. It makes great sense to me.

We tried to get some interest in this proposal a year or two ago. I had the same reaction -- on a reasonably consistent day in which most people can be ready to start, it would get us all out on course and end a lot of leeching and start roulette.

To be clear, the proposal is that the CD announces a "last start time" half hour or so after gate open. You can still start whenever you want, but if you start after last start time your start time is the last start time.

This was in part to accommodate the then groundswell for Grand Prix, as well as the big concern over gaggling and leeching that we see boiling up in the flarm debate. However, it died on the vine somehow with no interest. Perhaps we'll try again and see if anyone can be talked in to running a regional this way. A poll topic for sure.

John Cochrane BB

I'd suggest a small modification that would make this more palatable: After the "last start time" expires, let's begin taxing the contestant at say 10% instead of 100%. That would be 1 second tax per 10 seconds transpired. It seems like 10% is enough to get most everyone out on course yet not completely shaft the poor sap who can't get up or has a relight or has an instrument problem and is late starting. I believe that I read a variation of this idea on a previous post - I think it was 9B.

If the task is "properly" called, most everyone is on course within 30 minutes of opening. Tactically there is almost no usable benefit to starting more than 10 minutes or so after the group you want to chase.
I see this as little more than a gimmick intended to try to get more pack flying that some folks call racing.
As an example, look at the recent Elmira contest. Tasks used most of the day and few played games.
Save this stuff for GP events where those that want it will come.

UH