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The 11 best things at the 2015 15m/Std Class Nationals at Harris Hill



 
 
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  #31  
Old August 10th 15, 03:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Papa3[_2_]
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Default The 11 best things at the 2015 15m/Std Class Nationals at Harris Hill

On Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 9:58:48 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:

The point of the rule is to make it smart to get into a decent position and GO. Messing around is far less valuable as the end of the window approaches. If you play the game and get caught in a spot where you cannot start perfectly...TOUGH! You have to take an imperfect start or you wait around for one and risk loosing significant time. This is a beautiful solution in my eyes.

Also, this is how all other true RACING sports are played, with the added exceptional freedom of a 30 minute!!! window...AN ABSOLUTE ETERNITY!


All of these are interesting ideas, and they have a lot of attraction from the comfort of the deck where I'm reading them. However, I think it would be very interesting to get feedback from a broader, more representative group of pilots (i.e. beyond R.A.S., which tends to self-select).

FWIW, consider Day 6 from the recent US Standard/15M Nationals. The day started out very strong, and the early launchers were quickly up to start height. A few of the later launchers were able to sustain but not get all of the way up. A few more relit. I received a huge amount of flak as an advisor since I reported 4kts to 6,000 feet while a few (about 25% to 30% of the fleet) were struggling.

The simple answer is "well then, the gate shouldn't have opened". OTHOH, I've seen many days where cycling near the gate means there is never a perfect time. If guys are high and they let down assuming the gate will open, then it's unfair to them if it is further delayed. Conversely, late launchers may protest that it wasn't fair. IIRC, that's one of the main reasons the grid is shuffled.

Point being, IMO the assumption that the gate opening time can be rigidly timed is good in theory and less so in practice. Our current process does put some premium on a person reading the weather and determining when a start makes sense. That's certainly a skill and one that some folks seem to possess in greater quantities than some other folks.

It is interesting to me that many of the most successful racers in our sport have tended to be lone wolf types who struck out independently as often as not. It's not clear to me after 25 years of racing whether the trend is toward more pack racing or less; I think it really depends on the site and the weather more than anything. But, I think the first order of business is to put some thought into whether pack racing is or isn't what we want. That will determine whether the "fixes" make sense. No?

P3

  #32  
Old August 10th 15, 10:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default The 11 best things at the 2015 15m/Std Class Nationals at Harris Hill

I'm not sure how we got from a discussion on the impact of FLARM stealth on soaring skills and leeching, on the one hand, and time-limited start gates on the other. My first reaction to the latter idea is that there are at least four negative effects, several of which have been noted:

1. Penalizes the pilot who needs a relight or has an equipment problem and has to land. In itself that's a disadvantage. Adding an explicit time/point penalty for starting late doesn't make sense. It's easy to cavalierly say that anyone who can't climb up and start within X amount of time has a different kind of problem, but at Elmira, we had one day with massive relights caused by cycling and OD, among them some of the highest-ranking U.S. pilots. Also at Elmira we saw a lot of starting through the top of the gate, which makes gaggle compression less of an issue. This reminds me of government regulators who try to "enhance" competition by imposing price controls. In this case, if starting late doesn't work, let "market forces" (i.e., the score sheet) take care of it.

2. Reduces the importance of yet another soaring skill: i.e., being able to assess and bracket the best weather of the day, including days when it makes sense to hold back until better weather arrives. Soaring isn't other sports. The fact that Formula One racing cars all start at the same moment is irrelevant to us. What's next, penalizing pilots who deviate from the course line more than X miles because it's "unfair" if everyone doesn't traverse the same terrain? Different sports, different competitive philosophies, different rules.

3. Compresses the field into a smaller slice of time and air, thus encouraging leeching and potentially impacting safety. You think it's crowded now at the top of the gaggle just under the start cylinder ceiling? Just wait until there's a bunch of pilots milling around watching the clock wanting to start just before the deadline...but not before anyone else does.

4. More complications to our scoring system. Winscore has become a chore to support already without these latest "innovations". Every time the rules change, the developer is forced to change the code. Anyone in the software business knows that each time you make a change, you risk introducing bugs, even with extensive regression and user acceptance testing (which, based on experience, isn't always done). Not too many years ago after a Regional contest raised some questions about the scores, I installed Winscore, poked through the documentation, and reran the scoring. No disrespect to the talented and dedicated developer but I was appalled at how difficult and manual some of the necessary operations were. No surprise; there's not much of a "market" for Winscore and the developer isn't getting rich supporting the tiny user group. I also found several bugs that changed the order of daily finishers. This was in late fall after that year's program had been in use all season. I'm not the only one who has encouraged the Rules Committee to factor in necessary changes to the scoring system whenever revisions to the rules are being considered. It's easy to say that starting penalties or thermal taxes can be done automatically. In the real world, that just isn't true.

The Elmira experiment provided evidence that stealth mode yields essentially all of the collision-warning benefits of FLARM without encouraging leeching or reducing the importance of the soaring skills we've always sought to evaluate.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.
  #33  
Old August 11th 15, 01:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bob Pasker
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Default The 11 best things at the 2015 15m/Std Class Nationals at Harris Hill

I've never flown a contest, but I have a question about people coming up short. If that seems to be a problem, why isn't there an altitude floor for the finish line? --bob
  #34  
Old August 11th 15, 01:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default The 11 best things at the 2015 15m/Std Class Nationals at Harris Hill

On Tuesday, August 11, 2015 at 8:13:39 AM UTC-4, Bob Pasker wrote:
I've never flown a contest, but I have a question about people coming up short. If that seems to be a problem, why isn't there an altitude floor for the finish line? --bob


There is, but is can be quite small. Most contests use a finish cylinder with a radius of a mile, with a minimum finish height appropriate for the site, commonly around 500 feet or so.
A few places can still use the lower line finish(bottom about 100 ft AGL)where it is deemed that it can be done with adequate safety.
UH
  #35  
Old August 11th 15, 03:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy Blackburn[_3_]
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Default The 11 best things at the 2015 15m/Std Class Nationals at Harris Hill

On Monday, August 10, 2015 at 2:21:59 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I'm not sure how we got from a discussion on the impact of FLARM stealth on soaring skills and leeching, on the one hand, and time-limited start gates on the other. My first reaction to the latter idea is that there are at least four negative effects, several of which have been noted:

1. Penalizes the pilot who needs a relight or has an equipment problem and has to land. In itself that's a disadvantage. Adding an explicit time/point penalty for starting late doesn't make sense. It's easy to cavalierly say that anyone who can't climb up and start within X amount of time has a different kind of problem, but at Elmira, we had one day with massive relights caused by cycling and OD, among them some of the highest-ranking U.S. pilots. Also at Elmira we saw a lot of starting through the top of the gate, which makes gaggle compression less of an issue. This reminds me of government regulators who try to "enhance" competition by imposing price controls. In this case, if starting late doesn't work, let "market forces" (i.e., the score sheet) take care of it.

2. Reduces the importance of yet another soaring skill: i.e., being able to assess and bracket the best weather of the day, including days when it makes sense to hold back until better weather arrives. Soaring isn't other sports. The fact that Formula One racing cars all start at the same moment is irrelevant to us. What's next, penalizing pilots who deviate from the course line more than X miles because it's "unfair" if everyone doesn't traverse the same terrain? Different sports, different competitive philosophies, different rules.

3. Compresses the field into a smaller slice of time and air, thus encouraging leeching and potentially impacting safety. You think it's crowded now at the top of the gaggle just under the start cylinder ceiling? Just wait until there's a bunch of pilots milling around watching the clock wanting to start just before the deadline...but not before anyone else does.

4. More complications to our scoring system. Winscore has become a chore to support already without these latest "innovations". Every time the rules change, the developer is forced to change the code. Anyone in the software business knows that each time you make a change, you risk introducing bugs, even with extensive regression and user acceptance testing (which, based on experience, isn't always done). Not too many years ago after a Regional contest raised some questions about the scores, I installed Winscore, poked through the documentation, and reran the scoring. No disrespect to the talented and dedicated developer but I was appalled at how difficult and manual some of the necessary operations were. No surprise; there's not much of a "market" for Winscore and the developer isn't getting rich supporting the tiny user group. I also found several bugs that changed the order of daily finishers. This was in late fall after that year's program had been in use all season. I'm not the only one who has encouraged the Rules Committee to factor in necessary changes to the scoring system whenever revisions to the rules are being considered. It's easy to say that starting penalties or thermal taxes can be done automatically. In the real world, that just isn't true.

The Elmira experiment provided evidence that stealth mode yields essentially all of the collision-warning benefits of FLARM without encouraging leeching or reducing the importance of the soaring skills we've always sought to evaluate.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.


All good points Chip.

We seem to be of two minds and there is only so much tinkering with the rules to make both desires work, so we will need to decide which is more important to us - and strike a balance that isn't overly complex.

Desire 1) Get everyone out on course and do "real" racing. This argues for GP start - or "last start" which I personally lobbied to get people to try at sanctioned events I attended after we put it in the rules. No takers. People seem to like being able to head out when they feel conditions are most favorable - or at least when they've been able to find a decent climb, which isn't always available on demand. Some people seem to also think that picking the weather and a course line are real soaring skills.

The desire for time-compressed starts seems to be correlated with a parallel desire for more restrictive tasking in terms of course selection (AT, Small-circle AAT, long MAT). The implication is more gaggling and a consequence of more gaggling is more leader-follower behavior (leeching), all the way to races as one big ant trail of gliders.

Desire 2) Discourage leeching. This argues for spread out racing. Wide-open start times are neutral with respect to leeching, but don't actively discourage it. You could go all the way to time windows for starts, different assigned start cylinders, etc. Races would likely would look like mini GPs every quarter hour or so. You could make this softer with a version of GW's "10% penalty". "No leeching" also argues for more spread out tasking (no-turn MAT is the extreme case, but AAT as well - ATs are the most encouraging of leeching behavior).

It's hard to imagine having it both ways. Fly exactly the same course at exactly the same time, but fly totally on your own. Hmmmm...

9B
  #36  
Old August 11th 15, 03:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Default The 11 best things at the 2015 15m/Std Class Nationals at HarrisHill

Mandating a finish altitude does not keep a glider in the air. Mistakes
and mis-judgements happen and there will be penalties and land outs, but
the glider will come down when it's time.

On 8/11/2015 5:13 AM, Bob Pasker wrote:
I've never flown a contest, but I have a question about people coming up short. If that seems to be a problem, why isn't there an altitude floor for the finish line? --bob


--
Dan Marotta

  #37  
Old August 11th 15, 06:10 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Default The 11 best things at the 2015 15m/Std Class Nationals at Harris Hill

On Monday, August 10, 2015 at 10:54:41 AM UTC-4, Papa3 wrote:
But, I think the first order of business is to put some thought into whether pack racing is or isn't what we want. That will determine whether the "fixes" make sense. No?


A little thread drift here, but why not, it's r.a.s. after all. Erik: Yes.

Pack flying mostly sucks.

ATs provide the means by which mediocre pilots can hang on the apron strings of really good soaring pilots and say "Look hon, I'm 97% as good as __." ATs aren't too bad when they are called on good, strong days with uniform weather and (here's the key) long task legs. On a 50+ mile leg, you can afford to vary your course line a bit and have the chance to do some proper decision making. The thing that drives me *nuts* about the "Long MAT" is that they generally get called with these stubby little 20 mile legs that keep the furballs from spreading out. Yuk. Multiple hours of flying around the Arc de Triomphe. No thanks.

Oh, there are occasional exceptions. We've had some riotously good Nascar style glider racing at Perry some years. It helps when all your buddies are really, really good... and race like gentlemen. That's good fun, but it does tend to compress the scoresheet.

Real accomplishment in this sport (imo) comes from winning a long day on your own decisions, and that means either leading the pack or doing a fair amount of flying on your own. It's really hard to do. I like it because it's hard.

Evan Ludeman / T8
  #38  
Old August 11th 15, 06:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sean Fidler
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Default The 11 best things at the 2015 15m/Std Class Nationals at Harris Hill

FWIW, again, I strongly disagree.

Pilots are simply not innocently waiting around in the start cylinder for the "most favorable conditions." Common! That is probably only 10% true, especially at high levels. That statement is pretty funny to me and I think plain false. It damages the discussion here because it is so false. U.S. Pilots are, in general, fairly well conditioned to search for, find and wait around with other pilots (in an accelerated high energy gaggle) to start, often for what seems to be quite and endless amount of time. What goes on in these gaggles is often quite exhilarating to say the least.

Your response is a gross oversimplification and is obviously aimed at me. So I'll bite and respond.

We already know the behavior that a start time limit would produce. Look at any start recording in see you where it's late in the day and the conditions are expected to be very week. The final day of this years PAGC is a great example. There are many, many more.

I contend that we simply will move the endless start posturing process forward with a reasonable time limit on the "game." It will be the same, just shorter in many cases or in a day where conditions are expected to be strongest late in the day. I am in NO WAY asking for a Grand Prix start in all US contest. Please! That would be too good. Too simple!

That said, in a "real" glider race start (Sailplane Grand Prix), the better pilots actually leave the followers rather quickly. I do not believe that (in the U.S.) gaggles would be any larger than they are now. I contend that the gaggles would be SMALLER and would BREAK UP FASTER than current US rules. But I digress...

At the Sailplane Grand Prix World Championship level gaggles break up almost immediately (the best sailplane competition pilots in the world, easily capable of leeching most of the others all day long). Go ahead and look at the flights (recorded on YouTube) PLEASE rather than guessing what will happen! Don't assume or take what someone tells you here to be true. I promise you that SGP finishes are never a big gaggle. In fact usually 20 minutes into the task they are broken up. These are 20 glider classes (no bigger or smaller than our nationals usually). SGP gaggles break up rather quickly on weak and strong days alike (and in mountains and flatlands).

This misconception propagated by many here about Sailplane Grand Prix or start time limits promoting gaggles is amazing in light of those clear, easily available facts. Watch the races. See what happens.

Furthermore, I contend that IT IS ACTUALLY UNLIMITED START WINDOWS (our current rules) THAT PROMOTE OUR GAGGLES. I believe that I can prove it with a short video mash-up of some recent U.S. tasks. You betcha...coming soon! Thanks for forcing me to do more homework Andy.

The definition of insanity is said to be "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." Wise words, wise words.

I simply would rather "get to it" and race with less dangerous, wasteful loitering in the start area. A fact many here seem to consistently discount or ignore in these debates is the very real safety risk that our current starting rules consistently create. Eventually, this risk we all must take (willingly, in the case of many) is going to catch up with a couple of us. When it does it is going to sting. I have witnessed some extremely close calls. I am absolutely NOT A FAN of start gaggles waiting around for long periods (with great conditions by the way) playing the "2 minute descent thru the (randomly, disorganized and unpredictable) spinning furball" game. This is the worst, most dangerous, most pointless aspect of the sport of soaring. I find it, frankly, disturbing. The interrelationship of unlimited start time and the two minute below max start height rule creates a mass panic of descenders as the first key starters begin to go (often a fake) out the top of a strong thermal. This pattern just keeps repeating usually. We must minimize this macho game of who can out-wait the rest of them.

Finally, there is no correlation to starting rules and course type. Starting sooner is equally good for all task types, even hats (OLC).

I have always thought quite differently that most. That said I am shocked in the way many perceive the pre start patterns of sailplane competition with a shoulder shrug to safety. It's a sport. Sports are constrained by boundaries in 3D space and time. DEAL WITH IT! ACCEPT IT. An unlimited start window makes it less of a sport and more of a game IMO.

Unlimited starting times are bad for competition quality and create highly dangerous, unpredictable patterns in our cherished soaring time/distance contests (absolutely not racing). More soon!

End-
  #39  
Old August 11th 15, 06:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ron Gleason
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Default The 11 best things at the 2015 15m/Std Class Nationals at Harris Hill

On Tuesday, 11 August 2015 11:33:04 UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
FWIW, again, I strongly disagree.

Pilots are simply not innocently waiting around in the start cylinder for the "most favorable conditions." Common! That is probably only 10% true, especially at high levels. That statement is pretty funny to me and I think plain false. It damages the discussion here because it is so false. U.S. Pilots are, in general, fairly well conditioned to search for, find and wait around with other pilots (in an accelerated high energy gaggle) to start, often for what seems to be quite and endless amount of time. What goes on in these gaggles is often quite exhilarating to say the least.

Your response is a gross oversimplification and is obviously aimed at me. So I'll bite and respond.

We already know the behavior that a start time limit would produce. Look at any start recording in see you where it's late in the day and the conditions are expected to be very week. The final day of this years PAGC is a great example. There are many, many more.

I contend that we simply will move the endless start posturing process forward with a reasonable time limit on the "game." It will be the same, just shorter in many cases or in a day where conditions are expected to be strongest late in the day. I am in NO WAY asking for a Grand Prix start in all US contest. Please! That would be too good. Too simple!

That said, in a "real" glider race start (Sailplane Grand Prix), the better pilots actually leave the followers rather quickly. I do not believe that (in the U.S.) gaggles would be any larger than they are now. I contend that the gaggles would be SMALLER and would BREAK UP FASTER than current US rules. But I digress...

At the Sailplane Grand Prix World Championship level gaggles break up almost immediately (the best sailplane competition pilots in the world, easily capable of leeching most of the others all day long). Go ahead and look at the flights (recorded on YouTube) PLEASE rather than guessing what will happen! Don't assume or take what someone tells you here to be true. I promise you that SGP finishes are never a big gaggle. In fact usually 20 minutes into the task they are broken up. These are 20 glider classes (no bigger or smaller than our nationals usually). SGP gaggles break up rather quickly on weak and strong days alike (and in mountains and flatlands).

This misconception propagated by many here about Sailplane Grand Prix or start time limits promoting gaggles is amazing in light of those clear, easily available facts. Watch the races. See what happens.

Furthermore, I contend that IT IS ACTUALLY UNLIMITED START WINDOWS (our current rules) THAT PROMOTE OUR GAGGLES. I believe that I can prove it with a short video mash-up of some recent U.S. tasks. You betcha...coming soon! Thanks for forcing me to do more homework Andy.

The definition of insanity is said to be "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." Wise words, wise words.

I simply would rather "get to it" and race with less dangerous, wasteful loitering in the start area. A fact many here seem to consistently discount or ignore in these debates is the very real safety risk that our current starting rules consistently create. Eventually, this risk we all must take (willingly, in the case of many) is going to catch up with a couple of us. When it does it is going to sting. I have witnessed some extremely close calls. I am absolutely NOT A FAN of start gaggles waiting around for long periods (with great conditions by the way) playing the "2 minute descent thru the (randomly, disorganized and unpredictable) spinning furball" game. This is the worst, most dangerous, most pointless aspect of the sport of soaring. I find it, frankly, disturbing. The interrelationship of unlimited start time and the two minute below max start height rule creates a mass panic of descenders as the first key starters begin to go (often a fake) out the top of a strong thermal. This pattern just keeps repeating usually. We must minimize this macho game of who can out-wait the rest of them.

Finally, there is no correlation to starting rules and course type. Starting sooner is equally good for all task types, even hats (OLC).

I have always thought quite differently that most. That said I am shocked in the way many perceive the pre start patterns of sailplane competition with a shoulder shrug to safety. It's a sport. Sports are constrained by boundaries in 3D space and time. DEAL WITH IT! ACCEPT IT. An unlimited start window makes it less of a sport and more of a game IMO.

Unlimited starting times are bad for competition quality and create highly dangerous, unpredictable patterns in our cherished soaring time/distance contests (absolutely not racing). More soon!

End-


Sean, are you going to try to get elected to the US Rules Committee?
  #40  
Old August 11th 15, 07:24 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Richard[_9_]
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Default The 11 best things at the 2015 15m/Std Class Nationals at Harris Hill

On Tuesday, August 11, 2015 at 10:45:37 AM UTC-7, Ron Gleason wrote:
On Tuesday, 11 August 2015 11:33:04 UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
FWIW, again, I strongly disagree.

Pilots are simply not innocently waiting around in the start cylinder for the "most favorable conditions." Common! That is probably only 10% true, especially at high levels. That statement is pretty funny to me and I think plain false. It damages the discussion here because it is so false. U.S. Pilots are, in general, fairly well conditioned to search for, find and wait around with other pilots (in an accelerated high energy gaggle) to start, often for what seems to be quite and endless amount of time. What goes on in these gaggles is often quite exhilarating to say the least.

Your response is a gross oversimplification and is obviously aimed at me. So I'll bite and respond.

We already know the behavior that a start time limit would produce. Look at any start recording in see you where it's late in the day and the conditions are expected to be very week. The final day of this years PAGC is a great example. There are many, many more.

I contend that we simply will move the endless start posturing process forward with a reasonable time limit on the "game." It will be the same, just shorter in many cases or in a day where conditions are expected to be strongest late in the day. I am in NO WAY asking for a Grand Prix start in all US contest. Please! That would be too good. Too simple!

That said, in a "real" glider race start (Sailplane Grand Prix), the better pilots actually leave the followers rather quickly. I do not believe that (in the U.S.) gaggles would be any larger than they are now. I contend that the gaggles would be SMALLER and would BREAK UP FASTER than current US rules. But I digress...

At the Sailplane Grand Prix World Championship level gaggles break up almost immediately (the best sailplane competition pilots in the world, easily capable of leeching most of the others all day long). Go ahead and look at the flights (recorded on YouTube) PLEASE rather than guessing what will happen! Don't assume or take what someone tells you here to be true. I promise you that SGP finishes are never a big gaggle. In fact usually 20 minutes into the task they are broken up. These are 20 glider classes (no bigger or smaller than our nationals usually). SGP gaggles break up rather quickly on weak and strong days alike (and in mountains and flatlands).

This misconception propagated by many here about Sailplane Grand Prix or start time limits promoting gaggles is amazing in light of those clear, easily available facts. Watch the races. See what happens.

Furthermore, I contend that IT IS ACTUALLY UNLIMITED START WINDOWS (our current rules) THAT PROMOTE OUR GAGGLES. I believe that I can prove it with a short video mash-up of some recent U.S. tasks. You betcha...coming soon! Thanks for forcing me to do more homework Andy.

The definition of insanity is said to be "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." Wise words, wise words.

I simply would rather "get to it" and race with less dangerous, wasteful loitering in the start area. A fact many here seem to consistently discount or ignore in these debates is the very real safety risk that our current starting rules consistently create. Eventually, this risk we all must take (willingly, in the case of many) is going to catch up with a couple of us. When it does it is going to sting. I have witnessed some extremely close calls. I am absolutely NOT A FAN of start gaggles waiting around for long periods (with great conditions by the way) playing the "2 minute descent thru the (randomly, disorganized and unpredictable) spinning furball" game.. This is the worst, most dangerous, most pointless aspect of the sport of soaring. I find it, frankly, disturbing. The interrelationship of unlimited start time and the two minute below max start height rule creates a mass panic of descenders as the first key starters begin to go (often a fake) out the top of a strong thermal. This pattern just keeps repeating usually.. We must minimize this macho game of who can out-wait the rest of them.

Finally, there is no correlation to starting rules and course type. Starting sooner is equally good for all task types, even hats (OLC).

I have always thought quite differently that most. That said I am shocked in the way many perceive the pre start patterns of sailplane competition with a shoulder shrug to safety. It's a sport. Sports are constrained by boundaries in 3D space and time. DEAL WITH IT! ACCEPT IT. An unlimited start window makes it less of a sport and more of a game IMO.

Unlimited starting times are bad for competition quality and create highly dangerous, unpredictable patterns in our cherished soaring time/distance contests (absolutely not racing). More soon!

End-


Sean, are you going to try to get elected to the US Rules Committee?


Gosh, I thought it was aimed at me.

Richard
 




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