The 11 best things at the 2015 15m/Std Class Nationals at Harris Hill

I know you were being tongue-in-cheek, but we do think about the issue of participation - a lot. It's not much of a race if nobody shows up.

Actually I was serious, Andy! I'd love to see you cut through some of the discussion about why competitive soaring seems to be declining based on data and analytics.

How much has it really declined over time vs. just spreading a fixed number of pilots over more classes? Is it just the one-time effect of a pre-Baby-Boom bulge of ex-WWII-trained pilots becoming inactive? Are we attracting the same number of new names but they just don't come back?

I complain about cost [I won't apologize for digressing; this is USENET, not a debate] but how does the cost of a new glider (or a good used glider) really compare with income vs. the past? How does siting affect participation, and does it impact all classes the same? I know the data on some of this aren't readily available but you've demonstrated an ability to think outside the box.

I'm not in touch with what's happening in Europe except to recall from years ago that the trend was towards motorgliders and two-place. Is Standard Class dying there, too? Club Class was booming a few years ago, flying in the face of the trend towards more expensive gliders. How does that compare to here?

And what's with the Perry regional? The old Chester regional at the same time of year was frequently oversubscribed (they received a waiver one year for 65+ pilots, IIRC). So if Perry is just as popular as Chester was, what's different about it compared with so many other contests where attendance is down?

We all have our opinions. I was intensely curious about your conclusions on the effect of FLARM in unstealthy mode on contest performance. And I look forward to your analysis of leeching.

Yes, I know the Rules Committee strongly considers participation (thanks for the handicapping in Standard Class; I'm puzzled why it hasn't attracted more interest). So I truly was hoping you could turn your attention at some point and perhaps develop some insights on what's been happening to competitive soaring.

Thanks to you and the Rules Committee for your continuing work.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

On 08/13/2015 11:19 PM, John Cochrane wrote:
It was a lot of fun, but we're not necessarily here for historic preservation.
But we are here for fun, aren't we?

Luke

On Thursday, August 13, 2015 at 11:19:09 PM UTC-4, John Cochrane wrote:
Let's remember where the start gate came from.

Faced with the technology of the time, our forebears wanted to figure out how to do an aerial start of the race, so that tow realease time was not start time, and we could tow everybody up in an orderly way and then start the race.

They hit on a great solution: the IP call, and passage of a start line, altitude and passage measured by Charlie Spratt. Altitude had to be low, even heading out over boonies, as one could not reliably measure 6000' starts. Also, there being no way to monitor prestart altitude or speed, a brillaint game developed of getting just the right altitude and blasting through the gate at VNE.

It was a great solution for the technology of the time.

But we don't have that technology. We have recording GPS. If you were to start from scratch and invent glider racing with GPS, you would not invent anything of the sort. It's a solution to a problem with different constraints.

Why go back to something developed on the constraints of visual starts and stretched wire altitude measurement? Just for historic preservation, or because we always did it that way?

If we want to reform starts, think about how we would run races if we were inventing them from scratch, and we will be controlling position and altitude with GPS.

Given that we record GPS, it strikes me the most obvious simplification, and the way we might do things starting from scratch, is a "roll out and go" start. Why start the race when you cross some plane in space, especially given that all the turnpoints are just fixes? Why all the tension about getitng one fix above the cylinder, or maxing your glide to the edge? Why not just have a cylinder, and your best fix in the cylinder is a start, just as an area turnpoint your best fix is the turnpoint. Just roll out and go.

Absent that somewhat simpler system, the current start cylinder does a good job, I think, of controlling a start in a way that is simple for pilots and scorers using GPS technology. A straight line often moves the best start point far away from the airport. Start out the top is brilliant. Measuring speed in the cylinder is impractical: the thing on which you are scored must be easily visible in the cockpit, and with unknown wind there is no way to display the speed on which you will be scored. Diving for a line is a barbaric relic of outdated technology.

The same holds for finishes by the way. The finish line is a brilliant solution to the problem, how do you measure the end of the race by hand and stopwatch. It is not what anyone would invent if they are thinking about the problem from scratch given that we measure races with GPS. It is surely not what anyone would invent in an environment in which all approaches to non-towered airports follow the AIM and arrive for downwind at 800 feet. It was a lot of fun, but we're not necessarily here for historic preservation.

John Cochrane BB

The "best fix" sounds good but it means a competitor doesn't really know when they started till after the race is scored. That just doesn't "feel right."

Thread drift. Ok... How's this?

For me, soaring is great fun. I've been doing it consistently for about 5 years now. I've met a bunch of amazing, great, kind people and have learned a tremendous amount about the sport (light years left to go). Thru and thru, as a group, soaring pilots, their friends and family are among the nicest, smartest most interesting people I have ever met. I am attracted to this immensely.

Part of the reason I have devoted time and energy to the sport is that am truly inspired by what competition/cross country pilots are capable of doing in gliders. I am still fascinated by it and want to be a part of it. This, for me, was huge. Glider pilots are amazing pilots, PERIOD.

I probably never would have truly learned of the sport (and what it really is at the highest levels), or been so attracted to it if my dad was not involved. Having a family member with a high performance glider, flying it regularly and promoting how amazing the sport could be all the time was key. Having access to a high performance glider and a group of local friends who could mentor me and take me out on cross country flights shortly after I got my license was the key moment. Would I have got my license if the motivation was just flying around the airport? Probably not.

Those experiences flying with the Ionio boys on short, mentored cross country's "set the hook" for me and eventually led to me buying a glider so that I could fly with everyone rather than leave my dad back at the airport whenever I was flying. Of course once I bought my first glider so I could fly with this gang regularly, the learning curve grew dramatically. The hook set deeper. And so on.

Flying clubs are important to US soaring "health" I suppose but they also seem to lack in areas. They often don't have much to offer in terms of even moderate performance gliders. They often don't promote or in some cases even allow cross country.

It seems that European clubs are more into cross country which is more challenging and more rewarding than local flight, which I think gets old after a year or so. If some inspirational figure is not actively encouraging and facilitating cross country glider flight (the whole point of the sport I think) at that key moment in a glider pilots career, I think they come to the conclusion that they have checked the box and move on.

Obviously without glider clubs more focused on taking pilots into cross country levels, one has to have the financial means to do it on their own. I dont see that as a real problem as numerous 40:1 gliders are available for the same price as a small sailboat or powerboat, which almost everybody seems to have these days (jet skis, snowmobiles, etc). It's a matter of priority. Gliders I suppose are for one person (usually) where a boat (or other rec toy) is for the whole family.

But Europe seems to have an entirely different dynamic with respect to soaring. More youth, larger numbers, etc. U.S. numbers have been steadily declining for 25 years.

One thing I learned in business school. It's often better to adopt successful competitors methods even if at first you don't fully understand them yet. Our clubs (and the SSA) should be talking to European clubs and picking their brains for advise. I wonder how many have actually done that. Perhaps take a trip to Europe on summer and spend a few weeks with a successful club, talk to the people, etc.

Oddly, my flying is at a location that actually IDs itself as IONIA NON CLUB. They don't like the politics. :-).

The rules is a small thing overall but debating the rules is an important thing in terms of competition pilots. My suggestions usually would make getting into competition soaring simpler for the new pilot. I do think our rules are too complicated, but the rule makers are all GREAT PEOPLE, working hard and want nothing but the best for our sport.

Sean
7T

On Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 7:35:37 AM UTC-4, XC wrote:
The 11 best things at the 2015 15m/Std Class Nationals

1. The weather. We flew 7 out of 10 days in Elmira. We could have possible even squeaked in another but the CD wisely called a rest day. One of the practice days was fantastic soaring. Thanks to God, Alleluia.

2. FLARM used in the stealth mode, already mentioned in another post. It really worked well.

3. The flying was tough but the atmosphere was relaxed and enjoyable. Thank you pilots for the sportsmanship. Not one pilot left this contest early, in a huff, with a broken glider, or otherwise. Very rare.

4. The dinners were excellent. Thanks go to my wife, Rebecca, and many volunteers.

5. Beer consumed was more than most contests. We killed a 1/2 keg of Stella, 2 1/4's of Yuengling and 1/4 of Labatts. Thanks to those HHSC members who bought the beer.

6. The National Soaring Museum issued a press release for us. We gave about 4 TV news interviews and we were in newspapers all over the region. Thank you NSM for all your support.

7. We flew a finish line. Tons of spectators, thanks the the press release above, were watching from the fence. Crews, juniors and pilots enjoyed it, too. It felt like you were at a race.

8. We had a PA system to announce pilot meetings, task sheets available, "P7 4 miles out", etc. This is a nice detail to include in contest planning..

9. We had the contest during the summer so young people could attend. I estimate we had 20-25 young people involved in the contest in one way or another. The HHSC juniors did a great job with the line. We also had several young people come to visit. Daniel Sazhin competed as a junior. Noah Reitter flew as a guest in the Standard Class and as sniffer.

10. We spaced the grid spots far enough away from each other that every glider could easily get to their spot. Then we compressed the grid. I really recommend this detail to other organizers.

11. Monty Sullivan as CD was outstanding. The overall tone for the contest was perfect. The task setting was spot on. Thanks Monty.

XC

we are all getting off track here. the harris hill contest was pretty sweet..

On Friday, August 14, 2015 at 9:37:15 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
Thread drift. Ok... How's this?

For me, soaring is great fun. I've been doing it consistently for about 5 years now. I've met a bunch of amazing, great, kind people and have learned a tremendous amount about the sport (light years left to go). Thru and thru, as a group, soaring pilots, their friends and family are among the nicest, smartest most interesting people I have ever met. I am attracted to this immensely.

Part of the reason I have devoted time and energy to the sport is that am truly inspired by what competition/cross country pilots are capable of doing in gliders. I am still fascinated by it and want to be a part of it. This, for me, was huge. Glider pilots are amazing pilots, PERIOD.

I probably never would have truly learned of the sport (and what it really is at the highest levels), or been so attracted to it if my dad was not involved. Having a family member with a high performance glider, flying it regularly and promoting how amazing the sport could be all the time was key.. Having access to a high performance glider and a group of local friends who could mentor me and take me out on cross country flights shortly after I got my license was the key moment. Would I have got my license if the motivation was just flying around the airport? Probably not.

Those experiences flying with the Ionio boys on short, mentored cross country's "set the hook" for me and eventually led to me buying a glider so that I could fly with everyone rather than leave my dad back at the airport whenever I was flying. Of course once I bought my first glider so I could fly with this gang regularly, the learning curve grew dramatically. The hook set deeper. And so on.

Flying clubs are important to US soaring "health" I suppose but they also seem to lack in areas. They often don't have much to offer in terms of even moderate performance gliders. They often don't promote or in some cases even allow cross country.

It seems that European clubs are more into cross country which is more challenging and more rewarding than local flight, which I think gets old after a year or so. If some inspirational figure is not actively encouraging and facilitating cross country glider flight (the whole point of the sport I think) at that key moment in a glider pilots career, I think they come to the conclusion that they have checked the box and move on.

Obviously without glider clubs more focused on taking pilots into cross country levels, one has to have the financial means to do it on their own. I dont see that as a real problem as numerous 40:1 gliders are available for the same price as a small sailboat or powerboat, which almost everybody seems to have these days (jet skis, snowmobiles, etc). It's a matter of priority. Gliders I suppose are for one person (usually) where a boat (or other rec toy) is for the whole family.

But Europe seems to have an entirely different dynamic with respect to soaring. More youth, larger numbers, etc. U.S. numbers have been steadily declining for 25 years.

One thing I learned in business school. It's often better to adopt successful competitors methods even if at first you don't fully understand them yet. Our clubs (and the SSA) should be talking to European clubs and picking their brains for advise. I wonder how many have actually done that. Perhaps take a trip to Europe on summer and spend a few weeks with a successful club, talk to the people, etc.

Oddly, my flying is at a location that actually IDs itself as IONIA NON CLUB. They don't like the politics. :-).

The rules is a small thing overall but debating the rules is an important thing in terms of competition pilots. My suggestions usually would make getting into competition soaring simpler for the new pilot. I do think our rules are too complicated, but the rule makers are all GREAT PEOPLE, working hard and want nothing but the best for our sport.

Sean
7T

Don't drift the thread.
This is a great topic for a new thread.
UH

The "best fix" sounds good but it means a competitor doesn't really know when they started till after the race is scored. That just doesn't "feel right."

Well, that's true now! Quite often, you start out the top, dip back in, and start again out the side... Actually, best start isn't really determined until the race is over. The side start might be faster but under min distance.

We also don't know where the best fix is in turn areas, which doesn't seem to cause that much trouble.

But really, in practical terms, you do know what the best fix is. You're killing time milling around in a thermal. You decide to start. At 90 degrees to courseline, hit the start button on the computer, roll out and go. That will be a darn good fix, and in 1% of the time that some other fix does better, it can only help.

Also this is easy for flight computers to figure out. And since on this forum we'll have computers next year that integrate all the flarm data for the last 6 months, reach out to the internet to grab archived traces, integrate with nexrad to show us bird flocks and the gaggles out on course, anticipating that a flight computer could do for the start what it already does for the turn area seems straightforward!

But this is serious topic drift and a better subject for another time

John Cochrane

Don't drift the thread.
This is a great topic for a new thread.
UH

It's related. But I agree, great topic.

And great post by Sean; one of your best. New thread, please. Over to you.

JB