Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered

"WingFlaps" wrote in message
...
On Mar 13, 1:16 pm, "Vaughn Simon"
wrote:
As I read it, this is not VFR it's an IF test...

I read it that way also, which is why I suitably qualified my answer


Cheers back atcha
Vaughn

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
Any stall in the pattern can be a serious problem. You need stall and yaw
rate to induce spin. Of all the possible scenarios to have if you manage
to be ham handed enough to get into a stall in the pattern, a stall from a
slip is the most anti-spin. Then comes a coordinated stall with no yaw
induced at the break, and finally the worst condition is a stall from a
skidding turn. No matter which scenario, angle of attack MUST be lowered,
and any yaw rate MUST be neutralized IMMEDIATELY!


--
Dudley Henriques

Can you please elaborate on the stall from a slip condition.

I am fond of the bush pilot style pattern, using180 degree constant slipping
turn to final and would also be interested in your thoughts on these.

TIA
Happy landings,

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk At Wow Way D0t C0m wrote in message
news:tOKdnXSOOaMvyEXanZ2dnUVZ_vamnZ2d@wideopenwest .com...
Stall speed changes with increasing G (increasing lift). Increasing G
comes

Strictly speaking, the increasing G correlates to an increasing coefficient
of lift which comes from an increasing angle of attack which comes from the
moment generated by the tail which comes from an increasing pull (assuming a
constant airspeed).

(just trying to get a head start on the nit picking)

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

Private wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
Any stall in the pattern can be a serious problem. You need stall and yaw
rate to induce spin. Of all the possible scenarios to have if you manage
to be ham handed enough to get into a stall in the pattern, a stall from a
slip is the most anti-spin. Then comes a coordinated stall with no yaw
induced at the break, and finally the worst condition is a stall from a
skidding turn. No matter which scenario, angle of attack MUST be lowered,
and any yaw rate MUST be neutralized IMMEDIATELY!


--
Dudley Henriques

Can you please elaborate on the stall from a slip condition.

I am fond of the bush pilot style pattern, using180 degree constant slipping
turn to final and would also be interested in your thoughts on these.

TIA
Happy landings,


I see no problems at all with a constant slipping turn approach, and in
fact favor this type myself when flying prop fighters such as the P51
and the F8F and even the Pitts Spcial due to the better visibility
during these approaces over the nose and ahead and inside the turn as
the approach is flown.

Slips are basically anti spin. You can actually increase the angle of
attack available in front of your critical angle of attack as you deepen
a slip. The ultimate example of this would be knife edge flight where
forward stick pressure is required to reduce angle of attack to near the
0 lift point on the wing.
Of course you won't be doing any knife edge flight on a slipping
approach, but the slip you are in is still anti spin.
Even if you stall the airplane in a slip, the likely result will be a
break over the top, which is a much better stall break than a skidding
stall break which will usually break under the bottom. You have much
more time to recover from a slipping stall entry than you do from a skid
entry.

The bottom line is that it's quite safe to fly a slipping approach if
you are aware, flying properly and watching what you are doing.

--
Dudley Henriques

On Mar 13, 9:14*am, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk At Wow Way
D0t C0m wrote:
"skym" wrote in message

...

While making a turn to base and final recently, I was aware that I was
going to be wide with my normal turn from downwind through base to
final, so I banked more to keep as close to the runway centerline as
possible. *I kept thinking about the infamous and usually fatal stall/
spin by some pilots in this situation, *I kept thinking that if I keep
the ball centered, even with a very steep bank, that I would be ok and
not auger in. *Some of you instructors and old pros...is this correct?
(Not that I intend to make it a practice.)

Instead of asking about keeping the ball centered, perhaps you should be
asking why you elected to flirt with a pilot error fatality by cranking and
yanking for the sake of a few style points... So what if you overshoot the
turn????

Note: as others are beating to death - stall speed doesn't change with bank.
Stall speed changes with increasing G (increasing lift). Increasing G comes
from pulling on the yoke/stick. Period. No pull, no G, no increase in stall.
More pull, more G, higher stall. *Wings level, wings banked, wings upside
down - makes no difference.

so if i am doing a steep descending turn , I wont be pulling back on
the stick as much as a steep level turn,
hence less g ? This would seem to contradict others comments that
you pull the same no of g in a bank whether it is level
or descending. I am still confused.
Terry

On Mar 13, 9:35*am, "Vaughn Simon"
wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message

...

Exactly. The difference between a loaded turn and simply allowing the nose to
fall through with reduced back pressure.

* *Reducing back pressure is something an inexperienced pilot is instinctively
loath to do when manuvering close to the ground, much more likely to be pulling.

on the contrary I have a habit of deliberately pushing forward on the
yoke as I turn onto final, it comes from a fear of stalling and the
fact
that being at this stage of the landing procedure I want my attention
focused outside the cockpit to ensure I line up out of the turn on the
runway centerline, and not worrying about my airspeed.
Terry

terry wrote:
On Mar 13, 9:35 am, "Vaughn Simon"
wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message

...

Exactly. The difference between a loaded turn and simply allowing the nose to
fall through with reduced back pressure.
Reducing back pressure is something an inexperienced pilot is instinctively
loath to do when manuvering close to the ground, much more likely to be pulling.

on the contrary I have a habit of deliberately pushing forward on the
yoke as I turn onto final, it comes from a fear of stalling and the
fact
that being at this stage of the landing procedure I want my attention
focused outside the cockpit to ensure I line up out of the turn on the
runway centerline, and not worrying about my airspeed.
Terry


You had good instruction Terry. I'd only add for you to monitor your
airspeed as well. In other words, never omit an available cue.

"We don't fly in a single cue world"
Chris Patterakis
USAF Thunderbirds Lead

--
Dudley Henriques

On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 13:46:16 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Tina wrote in news:874d408e-73e6-4064-8d08-
:

I don't think anyone has suggested this, but there is a nearly
universal cure if you find yourself uncomfortably out of a reasonable
approach condition -- simply say to yourself this isn't looking good
enough, go around, and do better the next time.

It's my uneducated opinion that too many perfectly good airplanes get
turned to scrap because pilots continue to commit to an action that
has become untenable. You have a hand on the throttle and it's
important to remember to be ready to push it in if you don't like the
way things are shaping up.

Absolutely.

Don't let ego get in the way of good judgement.

True again. Sometimes it's not ego, though. A lot of thigs come into play,
especially if conditions are tough. It's a curious thing, the sort of
single-mindedness that often accompanies an accident.

Bertie

Lesson here is go-around if concerned and make sure you are preset for that
option?
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
.. .
My instructor carefully pointed out the difference
between a stall on final as opposed to a snap
spin.

I suspect a misuse in terminology, IMHO normal usage of the term 'snap' is
to refer to a 'snap roll' (or as the Brits would say, 'flick roll') which is
a roll performed with (loading and) rudder only and is really a spin in the
logitudinal plane or direction of flight.

A stall might be recoverable with no more
damage than a looseness of the bowels whereas
a spin could really fsk up your day.

The gist of his advice was that if you keep the
turn coordinated or even add a little extra
aileron, the up wing will have to come all the
way down through level before it will spin,
giving you time get the nose down and level the
wings before that spin can develop.

IMHO, a combination of stall and yaw in a decending turn (arrival stall) is
most likely to result in a spin under the bottom, where the aircraft will
enter the spin by dropping the lower or inside wing. On the other hand, a
stall combined with yaw in a climbing turn (departure stall) is most likely
to result in a spin over the top where the aircraft will enter the spin by
dropping the upper or outside wing. I suspect that you or your instructor
may be confusing the two. Your instructor is correct that most consider a
slip to be more spin resistant than a skid and some/most will maintain that
a turning slip is even more spin resistant than cordinated flight.

IMHO stall/spin awareness training should include lots of demonstrations (at
safe altitude (where recover is made @2000')) of at least incipient (and
preferably full spin) spin entry (and recovery) from both arrival and
departure stall spins and demonstrations of the circumstances likely to lead
to each.

OTOH, a flat turn to final can quickly develop
into a spin before you can get it under control.

IMHO, A flat turn is most likely to be a skid, which most consider to be the
uncoordinated condition most likely to result in a spin.

Happy landings,

WJRFlyBoy wrote:
On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 13:46:16 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Tina wrote in news:874d408e-73e6-4064-8d08-
:

I don't think anyone has suggested this, but there is a nearly
universal cure if you find yourself uncomfortably out of a reasonable
approach condition -- simply say to yourself this isn't looking good
enough, go around, and do better the next time.

It's my uneducated opinion that too many perfectly good airplanes get
turned to scrap because pilots continue to commit to an action that
has become untenable. You have a hand on the throttle and it's
important to remember to be ready to push it in if you don't like the
way things are shaping up.
Absolutely.
Don't let ego get in the way of good judgement.
True again. Sometimes it's not ego, though. A lot of thigs come into play,
especially if conditions are tough. It's a curious thing, the sort of
single-mindedness that often accompanies an accident.

Bertie

Lesson here is go-around if concerned and make sure you are preset for that
option?

Well trained pilots will fly the approach treating it as a constantly
changing dynamic. They will be planning for the next anticipated action
based on all prevailing cues. Along with this they will have an
accompanying exit plan keyed by any expected parameter not being met by
any of these cues.
The go around trigger should occur if a critical parameter isn't met.
Each pilot will have a different trigger level based on various human
factors involving the pilot's training and his/her mental processing in
play on the approach.
This is the pedantic version of "If it don't look good, it usually ain't
no good......take it around!! :-))"


--
Dudley Henriques