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New House Thermal



 
 
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  #11  
Old June 27th 17, 09:49 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Walsh
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Posts: 83
Default New House Thermal

At 05:01 27 June 2017, wrote:
On 27/06/2017 01:43, Tango Whisky wrote:

Well, there is an issue with physics ... ;-) A good part of

the sunlight
is absorbed by the solar panels and transformed into

electricity, and *not*
into heat.

Bert "TW"


No. Only a miniscule amount of the sunlight is turned into

electricity.
At this level, (electricity out / total solar energy in) the

efficiency
of PV panels is *buggerall*.

The solar farm will probably not only not produce thermals,

it will
increase your energy costs. Shift to France where they

have cheap
nuclear AND you can go gliding in the alps!


Yes: you can fly in the Alps in France.
No: France does not have "cheap nuclear" as will become
clear when the real costs of decommissioning all this nuclear
junk is added to the equation. The real cost will be bourn by
the French (possibly EU) taxpayer; the actual electricity price
to the consumer will still look "cheap". Oh and in an attempt
to look "Green" the French heavily subsidise solar, just like
the US and UK so we're paying for that too. The real
background to the current French nuclear power generation
was the French desire to have the bomb.
Lastly I've never found the many solar arrays around in the
Southern Alps to be especially good thermal sources: in a
flat land scenario they might well be useful.
My view is that Earth is already Nuclear powered, it's called
the Sun and at 93 million miles away it's exactly in the right
place.

  #12  
Old June 27th 17, 10:11 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Whisky
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Posts: 402
Default New House Thermal

Le mardi 27 juin 2017 07:02:56 UTC+2, a écritÂ*:
No. Only a miniscule amount of the sunlight is turned into electricity.
At this level, (electricity out / total solar energy in) the efficiency
of PV panels is *buggerall*.

The solar farm will probably not only not produce thermals, it will
increase your energy costs. Shift to France where they have cheap
nuclear AND you can go gliding in the alps!


Well, physics doesn't seem to be part of your world. Today's photovoltaic solar panels run at an efficiency of about 20%. The definition of efficiency is electric power produced, divided by incident solar power. These 20% of the incident solar power are not available for heating.

And if you call nuclear power "cheap", economics does seem to bother you either...

As for the French Alps (where you see solar farms popping up everywhere) - that's where I fly most of the time.


  #13  
Old June 27th 17, 11:57 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_5_]
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Posts: 1,224
Default New House Thermal

On Tue, 27 Jun 2017 02:11:21 -0700, Tango Whisky wrote:

Well, physics doesn't seem to be part of your world. Today's
photovoltaic solar panels run at an efficiency of about 20%. The
definition of efficiency is electric power produced, divided by incident
solar power. These 20% of the incident solar power are not available for
heating.

Indeed. There's a smallish solar panel farm installed across the road
from where I fly. I haven't noticed any thermals (or Cu forming) above
it.

OTOH many years ago I got a 600 ft climb late in a cloudy, still, summer
afternoon from a stationary 100m diameter patch of sunlight on an
otherwise shaded ploughed field. That was in an SZD Junior.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
  #14  
Old June 27th 17, 12:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected][_2_]
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Posts: 13
Default New House Thermal

On 27/06/2017 19:11, Tango Whisky wrote:
Le mardi 27 juin 2017 07:02:56 UTC+2, a écrit :
No. Only a miniscule amount of the sunlight is turned into electricity.
At this level, (electricity out / total solar energy in) the efficiency
of PV panels is *buggerall*.

The solar farm will probably not only not produce thermals, it will
increase your energy costs. Shift to France where they have cheap
nuclear AND you can go gliding in the alps!


Well, physics doesn't seem to be part of your world. Today's photovoltaic solar panels run at an efficiency of about 20%. The definition of efficiency is electric power produced, divided by incident solar power. These 20% of the incident solar power are not available for heating.

And if you call nuclear power "cheap", economics does seem to bother you either...

As for the French Alps (where you see solar farms popping up everywhere) - that's where I fly most of the time.


Physics and economics are both a good part of my world. You're just
sniffy because I see it differently from you.

Efficiency from solar panels is actually about 15-16% at best and when
new. And of course it's hard to keep those panels facing the sun the
whole 24 hours and the output is also *buggerall* in a lot of places for
half the year as well. Overall? *Miniscule* is a good word.

Where your physics - and economics - fall apart is when seeing in the
dark and not freezing at night is factored in. Then the coal or oil
fired power stations - which would be both cheap and bloody efficient
during the day as well - really come into their own and make it clear
that the PV panels are a just a first world sop to a warped sense of
morality, defective understanding of atmospheric science and gullibility
in the face of mass media hype...

....and yes, I know they're popping up all over, but lots of people being
stupid doesn't lessen the degree of each one's stupidity.
--
GC
  #15  
Old June 27th 17, 01:01 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Whisky
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Posts: 402
Default New House Thermal

Le mardi 27 juin 2017 13:33:56 UTC+2, a écritÂ*:
On 27/06/2017 19:11, Tango Whisky wrote:
Le mardi 27 juin 2017 07:02:56 UTC+2, a écrit :
No. Only a miniscule amount of the sunlight is turned into electricity.
At this level, (electricity out / total solar energy in) the efficiency
of PV panels is *buggerall*.

The solar farm will probably not only not produce thermals, it will
increase your energy costs. Shift to France where they have cheap
nuclear AND you can go gliding in the alps!


Well, physics doesn't seem to be part of your world. Today's photovoltaic solar panels run at an efficiency of about 20%. The definition of efficiency is electric power produced, divided by incident solar power. These 20% of the incident solar power are not available for heating.

And if you call nuclear power "cheap", economics does seem to bother you either...

As for the French Alps (where you see solar farms popping up everywhere) - that's where I fly most of the time.


Physics and economics are both a good part of my world. You're just
sniffy because I see it differently from you.

Efficiency from solar panels is actually about 15-16% at best and when
new. And of course it's hard to keep those panels facing the sun the
whole 24 hours and the output is also *buggerall* in a lot of places for
half the year as well. Overall? *Miniscule* is a good word.

Where your physics - and economics - fall apart is when seeing in the
dark and not freezing at night is factored in. Then the coal or oil
fired power stations - which would be both cheap and bloody efficient
during the day as well - really come into their own and make it clear
that the PV panels are a just a first world sop to a warped sense of
morality, defective understanding of atmospheric science and gullibility
in the face of mass media hype...

...and yes, I know they're popping up all over, but lots of people being
stupid doesn't lessen the degree of each one's stupidity.
--
GC


It seems that you don't really get it, but that's actually not my problem. Just go ahead and enjoy all those PV thermals ;-)

And no, I'm not necessarily promoting PV energy, I just stated that nuclear energy is not cheap at all.

End of discussion for me.

Bert TW
  #16  
Old June 27th 17, 01:07 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Posts: 962
Default New House Thermal

Rainy day mental exercise...

Calculate the mass of a thermal.

Calculate the heat capacity of a thermal.

Calculate the energy input required to heat the thermal some small amount for buoyancy, say 2 deg C.

Compare to the heat output of terrestrial sources. A Nuc powerplant is typically a few GW (thermal). Most other anthropogenic sources are smaller.

Sit back in awe and ponder the wonders of nature.

I'm a big fan of gravitationally confined fusion power.

-Evan Ludeman / T8


  #17  
Old June 27th 17, 01:07 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Roy B.
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Posts: 304
Default New House Thermal

OK - back to the subject at hand (solar farms as thermal generators). I'm not an engineer or physicist but I suspect that part of the consideration is the mass of the structure and it's ability to hold enough heat to effectively transfer it to the air around it. So plowed fields, rock faces on mountains, and heavy metal silos do well to form thermals. But the light weight frames that hold the solar panels don't hold the heat well - and they shade the ground below them. And despite what people think they "should' do - they really don't generate thermals very well.
ROY
  #18  
Old June 27th 17, 01:11 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Steve Thompson[_2_]
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Posts: 21
Default New House Thermal

My experience has been that very large solar arrays can
be good sources frequently mentioned on the radio by
climbing gliders. eg on the plateau of Valensole, near
Vinon. Perhaps because the panels do get hot quicker
than the surrounding areas of land.

On the "thread crept" topic, though obviously Solar PV
can't work at night, it does significantly substitute for
some very dirty sources when the sun is shining. At the
moment UK and French PV is generating twice as much
power as coal fired, and if you do the sums, that's a lot
of coal unburnt - which I feel has to be good. (I reckon
about 400kg/hr generating 1MW, which incidentally is
about 1 RR Merlin at full chat.)

For real figures see http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

and in the top left corner of that, a link for France




At 11:33 27 June 2017, wrote:
On 27/06/2017 19:11, Tango Whisky wrote:
Le mardi 27 juin 2017 07:02:56 UTC+2,

a écrit :
No. Only a miniscule amount of the sunlight is

turned into electricity.
At this level, (electricity out / total solar energy in)

the efficiency
of PV panels is *buggerall*.

The solar farm will probably not only not produce

thermals, it will
increase your energy costs. Shift to France where

they have cheap
nuclear AND you can go gliding in the alps!


Well, physics doesn't seem to be part of your world.

Today's photovoltaic
solar panels run at an efficiency of about 20%. The

definition of
efficiency is electric power produced, divided by

incident solar power.
These 20% of the incident solar power are not available

for heating.

And if you call nuclear power "cheap", economics

does seem to bother you
either...

As for the French Alps (where you see solar farms

popping up everywhere)
- that's where I fly most of the time.

Physics and economics are both a good part of my

world. You're just
sniffy because I see it differently from you.

Efficiency from solar panels is actually about 15-16% at

best and when
new. And of course it's hard to keep those panels

facing the sun the
whole 24 hours and the output is also *buggerall* in a

lot of places for
half the year as well. Overall? *Miniscule* is a good

word.

Where your physics - and economics - fall apart is

when seeing in the
dark and not freezing at night is factored in. Then the

coal or oil
fired power stations - which would be both cheap and

bloody efficient
during the day as well - really come into their own and

make it clear
that the PV panels are a just a first world sop to a

warped sense of
morality, defective understanding of atmospheric

science and gullibility
in the face of mass media hype...

....and yes, I know they're popping up all over, but lots

of people being
stupid doesn't lessen the degree of each one's stupidity.
--
GC


  #19  
Old June 27th 17, 03:29 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 774
Default New House Thermal

Question: How much energy does it take to produce a solar array (Aluminum mining, refining, manufacture, Silicon panel manufacture, etc.)? How does it compare to the energy output of the array over its life?
  #20  
Old June 27th 17, 07:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Paul Agnew
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Posts: 306
Default New House Thermal

Question: Does the previous question add anything to the discussion on solar farms creating thermals? There has to be a forum out there that is better suited for environmental debates. Let's focus on soaring.

I routinely fly high over the Florida Power & Light solar farm near the northeast side of Lake Okeechobee. Occasionally, there are pronounced markers indicating a thermal is cooking off the panels. It's a smaller solar farm, so I'm really eager to see what the mega-solar farm does for us.

Paul A.
 




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