Cost of ownership

Matt Herron Jr. wrote:

snip
Scheduling for me is the biggest hurdle. It's hard enough to get good
soaring weather and a day off to overlap.

snip
It is true that 1/2 time ownership
should give you plenty of flying hours, if only you could pick and
choose the hours you wanted.

Which brings me back to the topic of this thread; I want my own
glider. And given the excellent financial analysis done by several
posters, especially concerning the lost opportunity cost of the cash
tied up in the glider, I can't justify it on financial grounds. How
about needy, selfish, emotional grounds? Hmmm, also kind of a tough
sell. Oh well, a boy can dream, can't he?
Here's another dream solution to your problems: a self-launching sailplane.

It makes some things a lot easier, in several ways:

* you don't need to show up early or wait in a long line for a tow.
Just show up, rig, and go.
* you don't need to fly from an airport with a towplane, so you can
fly from a closer, more convenient airport.
* you don't need a day with widespread, predictable lift to go
cross-country, because you can cross blue holes, shadowed areas,
or recover from a bad guess about the lift with a few minutes of
motor operation.
* all the above make it easier to share th glider with a partner,
and still get in plenty of flying.

Owning a motorglider means more money to purchase the same soaring
performance, more maintenance, and higher insurance cost because of the
higher price. It also means more complexity for the pilot, and more
responsibility, because you are now the towpilot, too. You have to
decide if the ability to fly more and to explore more is worth the cost.

If you want to know more about owning and flying a motorglider, I
suggest starting with "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation",
downloaded from www.motorglider.org

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell wrote:

Owning a motorglider means more money to purchase the same soaring
performance, more maintenance, and higher insurance cost because of the
higher price. It also means more complexity for the pilot, and more
responsibility, because you are now the towpilot, too. You have to
decide if the ability to fly more and to explore more is worth the cost.

If you want to know more about owning and flying a motorglider, I
suggest starting with "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation",
downloaded from www.motorglider.org



Eric:

Do you have any numbers for the annual maintenance cost on your '26E? I
wonder how that compares to the saving on tows.

Greg

On Oct 26, 10:48*am, Greg Arnold wrote:
Liam wrote:
Personal property or use tax: *This varies considerably by state and
generally applies both to gliders and trailers. *In California use tax
is basically a sales tax on non-retail sales. It is generally imposed
on the purchaser of tangible personal property that is used, consumed,
or stored in-state. Private party sales or brokered transactions are
normally subject to use tax. If the first use of the property occurs
in California, use tax may apply even if the purchaser is not a
resident of the state. *In San Mateo County where you live the use tax
is 9.25%. The address on the FAA title/registration will rat you out
to the state taxing authorities. For more info see:

http://www.boe.ca.gov/sutax/faqtrans.htm

I have in the past gotten out of paying use tax by arguing that a
glider does
not constitute an "aircraft" as defined in Reg 1610. *Perhaps they're
getting more
strict now that the state is bankrupt.

Unless they have changed the law in the last couple of years, there is
no use tax in California on a used glider (as long as it does not have
an engine).

The law appears to me to be ambiguous so my guess is it may be a
judgement call. Here is the exact language.

"“AIRCRAFT.” “Aircraft” means any contrivance designed for powered
navigation in the air, except a rocket or a missile. “Aircraft”
includes an airframe or a fuselage even without an engine."

Could it be less clear? Powered, but without an engine (and maybe
without wings). I guess they mean what was it originally DESIGNED to
do? Motor gliders are taxable I guess. I am really glad to hear that
any missiles I might want to buy won't be subject to tax. I can see
the headlines now: "California Tax Break for Terrorists!"

I can't find anywhere in the regulations that used sales are exempted.
It appears that the intent of the law is to collect taxes on new
property bought from out of state or from resellers not licensed to
collect sales tax, so it wouldn't surprise me if they don't go after
used sales. Just don't blame me if you get a tax bill.

9B

On Oct 27, 10:24*am, Andy wrote:
On Oct 26, 10:48*am, Greg Arnold wrote:



Liam wrote:
Personal property or use tax: *This varies considerably by state and
generally applies both to gliders and trailers. *In California use tax
is basically a sales tax on non-retail sales. It is generally imposed
on the purchaser of tangible personal property that is used, consumed,
or stored in-state. Private party sales or brokered transactions are
normally subject to use tax. If the first use of the property occurs
in California, use tax may apply even if the purchaser is not a
resident of the state. *In San Mateo County where you live the use tax
is 9.25%. The address on the FAA title/registration will rat you out
to the state taxing authorities. For more info see:

http://www.boe.ca.gov/sutax/faqtrans.htm

I have in the past gotten out of paying use tax by arguing that a
glider does
not constitute an "aircraft" as defined in Reg 1610. *Perhaps they're
getting more
strict now that the state is bankrupt.

Unless they have changed the law in the last couple of years, there is
no use tax in California on a used glider (as long as it does not have
an engine).

The law appears to me to be ambiguous so my guess is it may be a
judgement call. Here is the exact language.

"“AIRCRAFT.” “Aircraft” means any contrivance designed for powered
navigation in the air, except a rocket or a missile. “Aircraft”
includes an airframe or a fuselage even without an engine."

Could it be less clear? Powered, but without an engine (and maybe
without wings). I guess they mean what was it originally DESIGNED to
do? Motor gliders are taxable I guess. I am really glad to hear that
any missiles I might want to buy won't be subject to tax. I can see
the headlines now: "California Tax Break for Terrorists!"

I can't find anywhere in the regulations that used sales are exempted.
It appears that the intent of the law is to collect taxes on new
property bought from out of state or from resellers not licensed to
collect sales tax, so it wouldn't surprise me if they don't go after
used sales. Just don't blame me if you get a tax bill.

9B

The law seems clear to me. You do not pay California use tax on a pure
glider. My experience is people do not pay this, and they quote that
exact wording about powered navigation. Owning a motorglider - I pay
it. Since the use tax varies from county to county I paid it in the
lower cost county where the motorglider is stored/operated and not
where I live that was simple to prove to CA tax board with tie-down,
fuel and maintenance receipts.

In California you do pay county propery tax however on a pure glider.
Again in my case that is paid to Colusa county where the glider is
kept. Not the slightly higher rate county where I live. And I much
prefer it goes to Colusa county becasue they use aviation property tax
income to fund local airports. Even if I don't fly from those airports
I like seeing aviation related tax get used for that.

Darryl

On Oct 27, 10:24*am, Andy wrote:

I can't find anywhere in the regulations that used sales are exempted.
It appears that the intent of the law is to collect taxes on new
property bought from out of state or from resellers not licensed to
collect sales tax, so it wouldn't surprise me if they don't go after
used sales. Just don't blame me if you get a tax bill.

9B

After a little research - apparently they will go after you for tax on
used property transactions. Apparently I was mistaken on the out of
state time limit. It used to be 90 days, it was recently changed to 12
months. If you bring an aircraft into the state within 12 months of
purchase you are subject to use tax. There is consideration about
location 50% of the time for cars, but I can't find the original
relevant source regarding aircraft.

The tax rate is nearly 10% so it's not a small matter to be concerned
about.

9B

Andy wrote:


The law appears to me to be ambiguous so my guess is it may be a
judgement call. Here is the exact language.

"“AIRCRAFT.” “Aircraft” means any contrivance designed for powered
navigation in the air, except a rocket or a missile. “Aircraft”
includes an airframe or a fuselage even without an engine."

Could it be less clear? Powered, but without an engine (and maybe
without wings). I guess they mean what was it originally DESIGNED to
do? Motor gliders are taxable I guess. I am really glad to hear that
any missiles I might want to buy won't be subject to tax. I can see
the headlines now: "California Tax Break for Terrorists!"

I can't find anywhere in the regulations that used sales are exempted.
It appears that the intent of the law is to collect taxes on new
property bought from out of state or from resellers not licensed to
collect sales tax, so it wouldn't surprise me if they don't go after
used sales. Just don't blame me if you get a tax bill.

9B


California Revenue and Taxation Code section 6274 says:

"Aircraft" means any contrivance designed for powered navigation in the
air except a rocket or missile.

This language is at
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/di...file=6271-6277

The second sentence you quote is included in the regulations, but not in
the statute. The regulations cannot expand the scope of the statute. I
believe the second sentence just means you can't escape tax by removing
the engine from a powered plane.

I have bought 4 used non-powered gliders in California, and have never
heard anything from the state about use tax.

On Oct 26, 10:13*pm, Greg Arnold wrote:
Eric Greenwell wrote:

Owning a motorglider means more money to purchase the same soaring
performance, more maintenance, and higher insurance cost because of the
higher price. It also means more complexity for the pilot, and more
responsibility, because you are now the towpilot, too. You have to
decide if the ability to fly more and to explore more is worth the cost..

If you want to know more about owning and flying a motorglider, I
suggest starting with "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation",
downloaded fromwww.motorglider.org

Eric:

Do you have any numbers for the annual maintenance cost on your '26E? *I
wonder how that compares to the saving on tows.

Greg

Eric discusses this a bit in his article he linked to.

Without quoting numbers I can say that a motorglider, at least
anything relatively new and expensive, is just not even something to
consider for saving costs on tows. Avoiding tow cost is just not a
good justification for buying a motorglider. The maintenance costs,
depreciation, capital expense are all much more than just buying a
conventional glider and using a local tow services.

With a few year old 26E I had maintenance costs this season over
$2,000 including new oil pump, replacement drive belt and some other
bits and pieces. I'll have a bill for a few $k to deal with current
issues. You can't even think of a typical motorglider engine in the
same light you think of the Lycoming or Continental doing service in a
tow plane. All the different motorglider engines have their own
issues. The electrics will swap battery issues for engine issues, will
be interesting to see the difference in long term costs there. And new
motorglider depreciation can be scary - they will likely suffer
significant early depreciation based on engine hours (think thousands
of dollars per engine hour). So you really ought to make sure you want
it especially if you buy a new one.

(when it's working) the motorglider shines with flexibility and
convenience and ground/retrieve crew avoidance, not tow plane
avoidance. It depends on the costs and situation but at times it is
more convenient, cheaper and faster (e.g. long tows behind a Pawnee
are faster) to use a local towplane than to self launch a motorglider,
but just have the engine there if needed for a self retrieve.

Darryl

Greg Arnold wrote:

Eric Greenwell wrote:

Owning a motorglider means more money to purchase the same soaring
performance, more maintenance, and higher insurance cost because of
the higher price. It also means more complexity for the pilot, and
more responsibility, because you are now the towpilot, too. You have
to decide if the ability to fly more and to explore more is worth the
cost.

If you want to know more about owning and flying a motorglider, I
suggest starting with "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation", downloaded from www.motorglider.org

Do you have any numbers for the annual maintenance cost on your '26E?
I wonder how that compares to the saving on tows.
The costs for maintaining the airframe and it's instruments are the same
as any glider, because the vibration from the Wankel rotary motor is so
small it doesn't cause any problems.

The annual is more expensive than a towed glider because of the
propulsion system. My cost for the annual is low because of special
circumstances, so asking your mechanic, or someone like Rex Mayes (who
does a lot of 26 E's), will provide a better number.

Routine maintenance is very small:

* New batteries every 3 or 4 years: ~$100 plus installation (owner
can do it)
* If you taxi a lot, a new main tire every 3 or 4 years: ~$100 plus
installation (owner can do it)
* New coolant hoses every 5 years: ~$150 for the hoses and new
antifreeze, 1 or 2 hours shop time, plus removing/replacing the
engine (2 hours total). Usually done when the engine has to be
removed for other reasons.
* the carburettor might need tuning every few years.

The major maintenance costs will be "black swans" - unexpected events.
I've owned my glider for 15 seasons. It now has 3000 hours airframe, and
147 hours engine. Over the years, replacements include the fan (AD) and
muffler (AD), both of which were early "new model" problems. Also
replaced were the propeller extension motor when I suspected it was
getting noisy, but it was probably OK. The water pump was replaced
preemptively, just because it had 130 hours and the engine was out for
other reasons. My cost doesn't mean much, because the parts were a lot
cheaper when the $ was stronger, and I do most of the work with the aid
of a friendly mechanic. Ask Rex about current costs.

Still, my major costs due to the propulsion system are the cost of
buying it (about $30,000) and the cost of insuring that extra purchase
price. At 5% interest, the "opportunity cost" is $1500 year; the extra
insurance cost is about $500, for a total extra yearly cost of $2000.

My major savings are tow costs, retrieve costs, and travel costs. A
2000' AGL launch takes less than 0.5 gallons of 100LL, so 50 flights a
year x $40 launch = $2000 saved. Without the motor, I'd land out about
10 times a year, so guessing at $100 average for tow and trailer
retrieves = $1000. That's $3000 avoided costs.

But wait, there's mo I can fly from the airport that's 4 miles away
instead of driving 110 miles to the nearest towplane. That ability is
almost priceless, but let's say for a weekend (2 flights) I avoid 4
hours and 220 miles of driving, and a night in a cheap motel: $30 gas +
$40 motel = $35/flight; times 50 flights = $1750.

So for me, I avoid $2000 (tows) + $1000 (retrieves) + $1750 (driving,
motels) = $4750. Net of the extra ownership costs ($3500) = $1250. After
15 years x $1250 = $18,750, I'm way ahead of the game, but a major
"black swan" event would change that.

Your mileage (literally and figuratively) will definitely vary, so run
the numbers to get an idea of your cost. Once you have the dollars, you
can begin considering if the cost and complexity are worth the
additional amount and quality of the flying you'll get.

One more thing: this is the 5th glider I've owned, by far the most
expensive to buy, but my wife thinks it's the very best one ever,
because I always get home!

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* Sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Darryl Ramm wrote:
And new
motorglider depreciation can be scary - they will likely suffer
significant early depreciation based on engine hours (think thousands
of dollars per engine hour). So you really ought to make sure you want
it especially if you buy a new one.

I haven't followed the used market much, but "thousands" an hour sounds
excessive for motor-based depreciation. Would pilots really think a
$200,000, 3 year old glider with 10 hours on the engine is the same
value as an $150,000, 3 year old glider, identical except for the 35
hours on the engine?

This might be a good time to remind everyone a DG 400 or PIK 20 E will
be lot cheaper than a new (or newish) ASH 26 E or DG 800, and that there
are new self-launchers that cost about what a used DG 400 costs. Both
Apis and Silent have several models, including electrics.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

On Oct 27, 9:34*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Darryl Ramm wrote:
And new
motorglider depreciation can be scary - they will likely suffer
significant early depreciation based on engine hours (think thousands
of dollars per engine hour). So you really ought to make sure you want
it especially if you buy a new one.

I haven't followed the used market much, but "thousands" an hour sounds
excessive for motor-based depreciation. Would pilots really think a
$200,000, 3 year old glider with 10 hours on the engine is the same
value as an $150,000, 3 year old glider, identical except for the 35
hours on the engine?

This might be a good time to remind everyone a DG 400 or PIK 20 E will
be lot cheaper than a new (or newish) ASH 26 E or DG 800, and that there
are new self-launchers that cost about what a used DG 400 costs. Both
Apis and Silent have several models, including electrics.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org


Working out depreciation costs are difficult. Afterall most sales are
into a very small specialized market and values are whatever you can
close a deal for and hard to keep track of. An expensive new
motorglider toy might _appreciate_ if there is demand (anybody got an
ASH-31Mi handy?). However since many of these mototgliders are very
fussy to misshandling and engine maintenance issues I personally would
devalue used motorgliders a lot if they had relatively high hours or
something did not give me warm fuzzies about the previous owner(s) or
people who maintained them. And I'd have no problem knocking of $k's
per hour for the first few hours on a new high-end motorglider. I've
looked at for people where I recommend walking away on a $150k glider
because of dubious issues. Depreciated to next to not worth the
hassle, well maybe some other sucker pays what is being asked.

Oh and the $30k premium for an engine is not for a new ASH-26E/31Mi.
You need to compare current pricing for the the ASG-29/18m to the
ASH-31Mi/18m price and the difference is more significant. The old
price delta on a 26/26E was around EUR 30k, that is about $45k now,
but the base cost is also out of date and motorgliders often get
configured with options like long range tanks etc. that add some more
costs. Then buying an ASH-26 (non-motorglider) I assume you are paying
extra costs for a motorglider prepared fueslage that would not
encumber an ASG-29, besides people would buy the more competitive 29
over a 26 (non-motor) although maybe the 31 without motor might be fun
in open-class. But as you say there are other lower costs options.

Darryl