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#71
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Gear Warning
Don Johnstone wrote:
It is not just a malfunction even a real warning at that height can distract enough from 'flying the aeroplane' to turn an incident into a serious crash. I have never heard of anyone being seriously injured or killed as the result of a wheels up. There have been accidents involving serious injury as the result of undercarriage warnings. This seems to be a UK problem, not a US problem. Have other countries experienced the UK situation? Do other national gliding organizations recommend against gear warning devices (the SSA in the US does not)? Are there any US pilots that wish they had not installed a gear warning device? Pilots that don't check their spoilers until close to the ground: this seems like a training issue or self-discipline issue, either about pre-landing checks, or very marginal returns to the airport. Marginal glides are very common in competitions. The US is working on this problem, at least for the final glide. The major concern is the marginal glide, not the possibility of an accident caused by a gear warning device. I imagine an attempt to ban gear warning devices from contests would be even more unpopular the new ELT requirement! Perhaps pilots with gear warnings should occasionally practice this at altitude, opening the spoilers with the gear up, then lowering the gear. There is a world of difference between deliberately leaving the gear selection to very late to achieve the best glide and being startled by a sudden loud noise in the cockpit. It is the unexpected and the 'instinctive' reaction that is the root of the problem. I can't say for sure practicing would be effective, but I think it would help. We practice for other unexpected things, like rope breaks. -- Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly Eric Greenwell Washington State USA |
#72
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Gear Warning
"Frankly, I think we should be a lot more concerned about the lack of a
"unlocked spoiler" alarm, or "canopy unlatched" alarm, than the potential injuries caused by a gear up alarm. Unlocked spoilers and unlatched canopies have caused far more accidents than gear warning systems. " This would be especially true if you look at the canopy design on the new LS-11 that's mentioned just a few articles away on RAS. If that sucker isn't locked it's gonna be GONE and if it hits the tail it's going to make a mighty mess of things. |
#73
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Gear Warning
"It triggers the warning when the spoilers are unlocked and the
airspeed exceeds 25 knots." The same conditions are satisfied for landing approach with the gear down. I expect the answer is that the 302, containing a full airdata and GPS system, can easily determine that a takeoff has started. Indeed, it does that to start the logger function. I use the airbrake warning of the 302 as well. It usually bitches at me for just one cycle on takeoff as I always use the airbrakes until I have good aileron control. Andy |
#74
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Gear Warning
Andy wrote:
"It triggers the warning when the spoilers are unlocked and the airspeed exceeds 25 knots." The same conditions are satisfied for landing approach with the gear down. I expect the answer is that the 302, containing a full airdata and GPS system, can easily determine that a takeoff has started. Indeed, it does that to start the logger function. I wrote that poorly. This is what the manual says: "When airspeed rises above 25 knots, the alarm sounds". Just having the airspeed above 25 knots won't do it, as you note, it is the "rising above". -- Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly Eric Greenwell Washington State USA |
#75
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Gear Warning
T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:
Eric Greenwell wrote: How does it tell the difference between takeoff - gear down, spoilers open and landing - gear down, spoilers open? It triggers the warning when the spoilers are unlocked and the airspeed exceeds 25 knots. From the Cambridge manual: I don't quite follow this. I land with an airspeed over 25 knots and I take off with an airspeed over 25 knots. That would make it sound when landing with the gear down, airspeed above 25 knots, and brakes open - i.e., the normal approach. Does it watch to see if the airspeed was first below 25 knots? Does it cut off when above 35 knots and only sound during the takeoff roll? The trigger isn't the airspeed value, but the rise in airspeed from below 25 knot to above 25 knots. This happens only during the takeoff roll. My apologies for not stating this clearly the first time. The system does work well, and none of the pilots I know that are using it get false alarms during flight or landing. -- Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly Eric Greenwell Washington State USA |
#76
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Gear Warning
At 05:48 17 November 2005, Andy Blackburn wrote:
At 21:54 16 November 2005, Eric Greenwell wrote: If it was...your wife's voice on the recording do you think you would still filter it out? Wow, nobody bit on this one? 9B I am married - of course I filter out what she is saying most of the time, I would go bonkers other wise. Luckily she dosnt read this site ):- |
#77
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Gear Warning
For what its worth, for many years now as I transition to a new
glider, one of the first things I add is two small squares of colored plastic tape, a green block at the end of the "gear down and locked" end of the handle travel, and a red block at the "gear retracted" end of the handle travel. As I turn final, I will often take a quick glance at the gear lever to make sure it is at the "green" end. Bob On 18 Nov 2005 16:45:40 GMT, Nyal Williams wrote: There is a solution to this problem; I learned it the hard way. Say to yourself 'The gear HANDLE is at the gear-down ICON. A fellow in Minden told me this beforehand. I didn't pay a lot of attention. I paid a lot of money. Now I use this phrase religiously. I switched between three new to me gliders in 4 days. The retract movement was in opposite directions on two of them. I went the lwrong way on the last flight. Use the words HANDLE and ICON. At 22:24 16 November 2005, Marc Ramsey wrote: Mike the Strike wrote: I prefer check lists, but must note I have seen another colleague return from a flight with gear extended then retract it on final as he went through his pre-landing checks! Same thing happened to me on my first flight in the first glider I owned. On pattern entry I went through my pre-landing checklist, operated the gear handle, opened the spoilers, then heard a load beeping noise. Closed the spoilers, beeping stopped. It took a fair bit of contemplation to recognize that the glider might have a gear warning system. A quick glance at the gear position symbols allowed me to solve the mystery while still plenty high. I must have forgotten to retract the gear after release... Marc |
#78
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Gear Warning
I fly with a gear warning and several times it has told me that I had
lowered the U/C but not locked it home properly. On the other side I personally know two very experienced pilots on the types they were flying who happily landed with no wheel despite the incessant beeping. Personally I think the BGA is right in that I'd much rather land with the wheel up than stall at 10 feet up despite the cost that could ensue. Mind you my Astir would probably win even if I landed on the tarmac :-) Cheers Robin In message , Bob Gibbons writes For what its worth, for many years now as I transition to a new glider, one of the first things I add is two small squares of colored plastic tape, a green block at the end of the "gear down and locked" end of the handle travel, and a red block at the "gear retracted" end of the handle travel. As I turn final, I will often take a quick glance at the gear lever to make sure it is at the "green" end. Bob On 18 Nov 2005 16:45:40 GMT, Nyal Williams wrote: There is a solution to this problem; I learned it the hard way. Say to yourself 'The gear HANDLE is at the gear-down ICON. A fellow in Minden told me this beforehand. I didn't pay a lot of attention. I paid a lot of money. Now I use this phrase religiously. I switched between three new to me gliders in 4 days. The retract movement was in opposite directions on two of them. I went the lwrong way on the last flight. Use the words HANDLE and ICON. At 22:24 16 November 2005, Marc Ramsey wrote: Mike the Strike wrote: I prefer check lists, but must note I have seen another colleague return from a flight with gear extended then retract it on final as he went through his pre-landing checks! Same thing happened to me on my first flight in the first glider I owned. On pattern entry I went through my pre-landing checklist, operated the gear handle, opened the spoilers, then heard a load beeping noise. Closed the spoilers, beeping stopped. It took a fair bit of contemplation to recognize that the glider might have a gear warning system. A quick glance at the gear position symbols allowed me to solve the mystery while still plenty high. I must have forgotten to retract the gear after release... Marc -- Robin Birch |
#79
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Gear Warning
Personally I think the BGA is right in that I'd much rather land with the wheel up than stall at 10 feet up despite the cost that could ensue. The point is that very, very, few flights arrive for a landing without opening the spoilers for the first time (when the warning would go off) at 10 ft off the ground. Much more often that happens much earlier when it's quite safe to lower the gear and still make a safe landing. At 10 feet, I would agree that for most pilots it would be best to leave the gear where it is. Tony V. |
#80
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Gear Warning
Tony Verhulst wrote:
The point is that very, very, few flights arrive for a landing without opening the spoilers for the first time (when the warning would go off) at 10 ft off the ground. Much more often that happens much earlier when it's quite safe to lower the gear and still make a safe landing. At 10 feet, I would agree that for most pilots it would be best to leave the gear where it is. I agree. It seems to me that the BGA's recommendation is poorly thought out. Every other sphere of aviation with a retractable gear has made warning systems compulsory and while gear errors still occur the frequency is quite low. In particular, the warning system is not blamed for the accident - which is the topsy-turvy logic of the BGA's policy. In most of aviation, accidents involving gear warnings are (rightly) attributed to poor pilot training or lack of familiarity/recency on type and something is done about the training system and the pilot's competence. Blaming the warning system is irrational. Graeme Cant Tony V. |
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