when does a "remain clear" instruction end?

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
ink.net...

I don't think so. From the AIM 3-2-4,
3. Arrival or Through Flight Entry Requirements. ...

NOTE-
1. If the controller responds to a radio call with, "(aircraft
callsign)
standby," radio communications have been established and the pilot can
enter
the Class C airspace.

2. If workload or traffic conditions prevent immediate provision of
Class C services, the controller will inform the pilot to remain outside
the
Class C airspace until conditions permit the services to be provided.

3. It is important to understand that if the controller responds to
the
initial radio call without using the aircraft identification, radio
communications have not been established and the pilot may not enter the
Class C airspace.

EXAMPLE-
1. [Aircraft callsign] "remain outside the Class Charlie airspace and
standby."

2. "Aircraft calling Dulles approach control, standby."


The material you quoted does not support your position.



I think that this makes it pretty clear that any acknowledgement of a
specific aircraft without a specific caution to remain clear is sufficient
radio contact to allow clearance into a Class C.


Yes, but that's not the case here. In this case there was acknowledgement
of a specific aircraft with a specific instruction to remain clear of the
Class C airspace.



Using your example of a subsequent instruction implicitly
canceling a previous instruction applies here as well.


It doesn't apply in this case because the instruction to remain clear of the
Class C airspace was the only instruction issued.

remain clear instructions end.. when you receive a "cleared through or
cleared to enter" instruction... just asking questions to figure out where
you are going.. does not indicate permission to enter

"did not assign any vectors".. fist clue
"did not repeat the remain clear".. why repeat a clearance you are already
complying with.. that's radio congestion

presumed "understanding" is like assuming.. not good

BT

"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
om...
Recently I was departing a small airport (with no control tower) which
was underneath the class C shelf area of a somewhat larger airport
(which is an air force base). Immediately before departing, I called
the approach controller for the class C airspace and told him that I
was departing and would like flight following. I was actually hoping
to fly straight over the larger airport (they weren't busy due to the
time). The approach controller assigned me a transponder code and
told me "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace". So
after I took of, I started flying a route taking me around the class C
area that extended to the surface. Well, the controller then called
me by my tail number and asked some questions (I don't remember
exactly what -- it might have been my expected cruising altitude and
aircraft type, I think he may have also said radar contact, although I
can't remember the specifics right now). As soon as this happened, I
turned and headed directly toward my destination, taking me across the
class C to the surface airspace. A fellow pilot was with me, and he
later mentioned that thought I might have violated the controller's
instructions. Hmmmm... That brings up a question --- when does the
"remain clear of class C airspace" instruction end? I figured that
since he called my by tail number and was clearly communicating with
me and didn't assign any vectors or repeat his direction to remain
clear, that it was now understood that I could enter. The controller
didn't give any indication that I had done anything wrong, but I want
to be sure that I understand this for the future. So ... if I'm told
to remain clear in the future, WHEN does that end?

Thank-you.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:uGLXb.186249$U%5.916363@attbi_s03...

Who said the pilot didn't respond?


I did.



ATC: "Cessna 12345, remain clear
of Class C". N12345: "Roger". N12345 flies around the Class C to
some destination,


So the pilot changed his mind about entering the Class C airspace?

The pilot was told not to enter the Class C, so he went around it, with no
further relevant communication with ATC. Then he came back the next day and
again established two-way communication. Did the remain-clear instruction
expire in the meantime? If so, when?

--Gary

"Maule Driver" wrote in message om...
"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
om...
I've had this happen to me a few times. After a "remain clear"
instruction, the controller would say something like "cancel previous
restriction, proceed on course". The "remain clear" instruction does
not expire until the controller explicitly cancels it.

Except in this case, the "remain clear" was issued before a VFR departure
and is meaningless. Conversely, if the ATC and the pilot established radio
contact with tail number ID included *just before departure*, it does not
mean that the pilot is cleared to depart and enter the Class C. That radio
contact and it's implied clearance is equally meaningless. The
communications aren't meaningful until the pilot is in flight.


.

I don't think so. When tower clears an aircraft for takeoff (at the
primary class C airport or from a satellite airport), the aircraft is
cleared for entering the Class C airspace.

In article IkSXb.18910$IF1.1264@fed1read01, BTIZ
wrote:

remain clear instructions end.. when you receive a "cleared through or
cleared to enter" instruction... just asking questions to figure out where
you are going.. does not indicate permission to enter

You should never hear a controller utter the words "Cleared to enter
(or cleared through)the Class C airspace". You do not need a clearance
to enter Class C, only establishment of two-way radio communications
and a Mode C transponder.

"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:IkSXb.18910$IF1.1264@fed1read01...
remain clear instructions end.. when you receive a "cleared through or
cleared to enter" instruction... just asking questions to figure out where
you are going.. does not indicate permission to enter

"did not assign any vectors".. fist clue
"did not repeat the remain clear".. why repeat a clearance you are already
complying with.. that's radio congestion

presumed "understanding" is like assuming.. not good

BT

This is not true. An explicit clearance to enter a class C is not
necessary - only radio contact. If, after having said "remain clear" the
controller comes back with "Cessna 1234, where did you want to go?" that is
an implicit clearance to enter the class C. All that is required is radio
contact.

Controller's know the rules. If they don't want you in their airspace, they
will ignore you or repeat the "remain clear" instruction.

-------------------------------
Travis



"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
om...
Recently I was departing a small airport (with no control tower) which
was underneath the class C shelf area of a somewhat larger airport
(which is an air force base). Immediately before departing, I called
the approach controller for the class C airspace and told him that I
was departing and would like flight following. I was actually hoping
to fly straight over the larger airport (they weren't busy due to the
time). The approach controller assigned me a transponder code and
told me "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace". So
after I took of, I started flying a route taking me around the class C
area that extended to the surface. Well, the controller then called
me by my tail number and asked some questions (I don't remember
exactly what -- it might have been my expected cruising altitude and
aircraft type, I think he may have also said radar contact, although I
can't remember the specifics right now). As soon as this happened, I
turned and headed directly toward my destination, taking me across the
class C to the surface airspace. A fellow pilot was with me, and he
later mentioned that thought I might have violated the controller's
instructions. Hmmmm... That brings up a question --- when does the
"remain clear of class C airspace" instruction end? I figured that
since he called my by tail number and was clearly communicating with
me and didn't assign any vectors or repeat his direction to remain
clear, that it was now understood that I could enter. The controller
didn't give any indication that I had done anything wrong, but I want
to be sure that I understand this for the future. So ... if I'm told
to remain clear in the future, WHEN does that end?

Thank-you.

"Tom Fleischman" wrote in message
rthlink.net...

You should never hear a controller utter the words "Cleared to enter
(or cleared through)the Class C airspace". You do not need a clearance
to enter Class C, only establishment of two-way radio communications
and a Mode C transponder.


But pilots request clearance through Class C (and Class D) airspace anyway.
What would you have the controller do, tell the pilot "unable clearance
through Class C airspace"? It's simpler just to "clear" the guy.

Not true. A "remain clear" prior to departure is no different than one in
the air. After departure, if the controller of the class C airspace makes
radio contact, that is clearance to enter.

--
-------------------------------
Travis
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
ink.net...

These are both right. Using the tail number is enough to establish radio
contact and grants permission to enter the Class C. That is exactly why
the extra "remain clear of the Class C" was included in the departure
clearance. If the tail number were not enough, then that would not be
necessary.

After departure, the tail number and a radar contact are enough radio
contact to enter the class C. If the controller needed something
different,
it would be added as a "Cessna 1234, radar contact, remain clear of the
class C."


The "remain clear of the Class C" applies only after departure and remains
in effect until overridden by an instruction that permits or requires
entry.

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:g2TXb.40634$yE5.152096@attbi_s54...

The pilot was told not to enter the Class C, so he went around it, with no
further relevant communication with ATC.


Right. The pilot left the frequency so did not hear several calls from the
controller. The controller saw the target proceeding around the Class C
airspace, concluded the pilot no longer wished to transit Class C airspace,
so he discarded the strip.



Then he came back the next day and
again established two-way communication. Did the remain-clear
instruction expire in the meantime? If so, when?


The pilot changed his mind about Class C services. The controller discarded
the strip. Nothing was carried forward to the next day. The next day's
request had nothing to do with the previous day's.

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
ink.net...

If, after having said "remain clear" the controller comes back with
"Cessna 1234, where did you want to go?" that is an implicit
clearance to enter the class C.


No, it is not. I don't know where you got that idea but it is simply not
correct. There is nothing in "Cessna 1234, where did you want to go?" that
implies authorization to enter Class C airspace when previously told to
remain clear.



Controller's know the rules. If they don't want you in their airspace,
they
will ignore you or repeat the "remain clear" instruction.


If the pilot acknowledged the first instruction to remain clear there's no
need to repeat it.