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OH-58 for Civilian use



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 4th 03, 04:45 PM
pp
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Default OH-58 for Civilian use

Can anyone speak to the problems and challenges that I might encounter
in purchasing a OH-58A+ . I plan on using it for primarily for turbine
training but was wondering if there were any income producing
activities that could be done under the restricted designation.

Thanks
Peter

  #2  
Old July 5th 03, 03:00 PM
pp
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Alan, I believe that you can apply for an Experimental rating that will permit
training use. I am interested in feedback on the reliability of these ships.
Thanks
Peter

SuperCobra wrote:

Peter,

I plan on using it for primarily for turbine

training

I think I am correct when I say that you cannot use a 58 for training.

You can, however; do forestry spraying in restricted category. There are other
possibilities, but not too many.

Alan


  #3  
Old July 6th 03, 08:53 PM
SuperCobra
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I believe that you can apply for an Experimental rating that will permit
training use


Enlightened once again!!

Alan
  #4  
Old July 8th 03, 03:20 AM
Micbloo
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Subject: OH-58 for Civilian use

I thought the military only gave/sold these aircraft to public safety
agencies (Police, Sheriffs Dept. etc)?

Gerard
  #5  
Old July 9th 03, 02:23 AM
Jim
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They do, however they eventually become surplus to these users as well. They
can sell at their discretion only after a couple years ( they don't even
have to be in use during this period) and can also trade for like value just
like the feds do. Many S-64 Skycranes were abtained using the trade method
direct from Feds to the private (commercial) owners. In fact a bunch are
being released now (OH-58s) because they are sometimes quite old and newer
units and brand new units are much easier to procure now that these agencys
have proven their use. Many of these agencies are procuring state of art
equippment. So tax payers are abliged.

just an opinion mindya
Jim




"Micbloo" wrote in message
...
Subject: OH-58 for Civilian use


I thought the military only gave/sold these aircraft to public safety
agencies (Police, Sheriffs Dept. etc)?

Gerard



  #6  
Old July 9th 03, 02:33 AM
Jim
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In the case of the military LOH OH-6A you can license it in the standard
catagorie and use it as you would use any H-500C or D by documenting all the
components serial numbers and times. If the component is new but with out
records you may be able to "half life" the component and still operate under
the standard license. Or replace any componet not in compliance with the
AWC. I have seen several of these used in turbine transition training ( not
first hand but on the internet). This may or may not apply to the OH-58 but
why not? The manufacturer may have significant leverage in this for
liability reasons, not sure. You could still train yourself in it licensed
Experimental or restricted, its under 12,000 lbs.

just an opinon mindya
Jim


"pp" wrote in message
...
Can anyone speak to the problems and challenges that I might encounter
in purchasing a OH-58A+ . I plan on using it for primarily for turbine
training but was wondering if there were any income producing
activities that could be done under the restricted designation.

Thanks
Peter



  #7  
Old July 9th 03, 02:46 PM
Micbloo
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They do, however they eventually become surplus to these users as well.

Thanks
  #8  
Old July 9th 03, 06:24 PM
Paul Baechler
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In article , "Jim"
wrote:

They do, however they eventually become surplus to these users as well. They
can sell at their discretion only after a couple years ( they don't even
have to be in use during this period) and can also trade for like value just
like the feds do.


That depends on the transfer agreement.

Many S-64 Skycranes were abtained using the trade method
direct from Feds to the private (commercial) owners.


The CH-54s (S-64s) were sold, not traded. There's no real analogy
between the CH-54 and the OH-58, type certification was one of the
original procurement requirements for the "crane, and all major
components were overhauled in FAA approved facilities.

--
Paul Baechler


  #10  
Old July 11th 03, 03:00 AM
pp
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I came across the following two items that shed some light on the ability to acquire
OH-58's and UH-1's. One deals with revised inspections and the other deals with who
is authorised to certify them as Restricted Type. I have been told that you can
apply to the local FSDO to get Expermental ratings as well. Price of these is
anywhere from $135K to $250K depending on component times and refurbishing
requirements.

Peter

ORDER: 8300.10

APPENDIX: 3

BULLETIN TYPE: Flight Standards Handbook Bulletin
for Airworthiness (HBAW)

BULLETIN NUMBER: HBAW 96-06A (Amended)

BULLETIN TITLE: Inspection Planning Guide (IPG)for UH-1
and OH-58 A, A+ and C Series Helicopters,

EFFECTIVE DATE: 3-17-97
-----------------------------------------------------------
1. PURPOSE. This bulletin provides notification to Federal
Aviation Administration (FAA) aviation safety inspectors (ASI)
of the availability of Inspection Planning Guide (IPG)for
military surplus UH-1 and OH-58 A, A+ and C, Series
Helicopters. These IPG's respectively, dated March 26, 1996
for UH-1 series helicopters (except UH-1N models), and dated
January 17,1997, for OH-58 A, A+, and C models, apply to
helicopters being operated for public and civil use.

2. BACKGROUND. Individuals from Flight Standards, Aircraft
Certification, Fort Worth Aircraft Evaluation Group (FTW-AEG),
commercial helicopter operators, Bell Helicopter Textron,
Allied-Signal, Allison Engine Company and other Government
Agencies under the auspices of the Interagency Committee for
Aviation Policy (ICAP), developed these IPG's, which now
provide operators with an alternate inspection program choice
which may be used in place of the military inspection program.
These IPG's spell out requirements for various Inspections
such as, Detail Inspections (#1, #2, & #3), Special
Inspections, Periodic Inspections, and events related
Conditional Inspections.

3. DISCUSSION. Military surplus helicopters are being
released by the Department of Defense (DoD) for use by other
government agencies. These helicopters are being operated by
other government agencies for such uses as fire suppression,
drug interdiction and other law enforcement purposes under
"Public Use" operations. Commercial or private operators are
also afforded the opportunity to acquire these helicopters
through government sales and may possibly make application
with the FAA for a Restricted Category Type Certification.

A. Aircraft while under operational control of the DoD are
inspected in accordance with various military inspection
programs which are identified by pertinent military Technical
Orders (TO), Technical Manuals (TM), or other Military
Maintenance Manuals. Inspection procedures were varied and
inconsistent due to the different mission requirements of each
service branch (i.e., Army/Navy/Air Force). With the
increasing placement of the UH-1 and OH-58 series helicopters
into the public use and civil aviation market place, the
military inspection programs did not provide for either
flexibility or the standardization that is needed to meet
civil regulation requirements.

B. These IPG's will give guidance for a standardization
baseline to be established for the development of an FAA-
acceptable inspection program that will meet most user's needs
and will also provide for easy review by the FAA inspector
with surveillance responsibilities for these operators.
Additional requirements beyond the IPG's guidelines could be
included, such as inspection procedures for optional
equipment, emergency equipment, or equipment installed for
special purpose use.

C. The Interagency Committee for Aviation Policy (ICAP)
will make the IPG's available to the FAA and to any interested
person or organization upon request. ICAP will also be the
central point of contact for future recommended changes,
additions, or deletions. This procedure will be coordinated
through the Fort Worth Aircraft Evaluation Group (FTW-AEG) on
an annual basis.

Copies of the IPG's may be obtained by contacting:

Mr. Mike Miles
Aircraft Management Policy Division
General Services Administration
18th & F Streets, NW, Room 1221A
Washington, DC 20405
Phone: (202) 219-1356
FAX: (202) 501-2149

4. ACTION. FAA ASI's approving inspection programs and
having responsibility for owners/operators of restricted
category UH-1 or OH-58 series helicopters should make their
operators, including Public Use operators, aware of the
availability of these IPG's.

5. INQUIRIES. Questions concerning this bulletin may be
directed to General Aviation and Commercial Branch, AFS-340,
at (202) 267-7501.

6. LOCATION. The material covered in this bulletin will be
incorporated in a future chapter of FAA Order 8300.10,
Airworthiness Inspector's Handbook.



/s/David E. Cann for
Dennis H. Piotrowski
Acting Manager, Aircraft Maintenance Div.

ORDER: 8300.10

APPENDIX: 3

BULLETIN TYPE: Flight Standards Handbook Bulletin
for Airworthiness (HBAW)

BULLETIN NUMBER: HBAW 97-18

BULLETIN TITLE: Inappropriate Ratings for Repair
Stations (Helicopter OH-58)

EFFECTIVE DATE: 12-15-97
--------------------------------------------------------
1. PURPOSE. This bulletin provides information to
Principal Maintenance Inspectors (PMI) regarding the
issuance of repair station ratings to perform maintenance
and alterations on Bell OH-58 Helicopters.

2. BACKGROUND. It has come to the attention of the
Aircraft Maintenance Division, AFS-300 that repair station
Operations Specifications (OpSpecs) have been issued for
the purpose of maintaining and altering Bell OH-58A and OH-
58C helicopters. The Bell OH-58 was built for use by the
military, and with the exception of the first two
helicopters, which were issued Type Certificates (TC), none
of the other helicopters were issued a TC under the Bell
name.

A. The first two Bell TC'd OH-58's have been destroyed,
consequently, there are no longer any TC'd Bell OH-58's in
existence.

B. Recently many of the surplus OH-58's have entered the
market as public use aircraft. Two companies have applied
for and received TC for the OH-58 and they are Garlick
Helicopters, TC Number USR00006DE and Arrow Falcon
Exporter, TC Number H22NM. These helicopters are eligible
for and were issued a restricted category airworthiness
certificate.

3. POLICY. Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations
(14 CFR) part 43, section 43.1 states in part that "This
part prescribes rules governing the maintenance,
preventative maintenance, rebuilding, and alterations of
any aircraft having a U.S. airworthiness certificate."
14 CFR part 145, section 145.57(a) requires a repair
station to perform maintenance in accordance with part 43.
These two regulations in essence, prohibit the issuance of
a repair station rating to return to service a non TC'd
military or public use aircraft.

4. ACTION. Any Flight Standards District Office (FSDO) or
International Field Office (IFO) that has issued a repair
station OpSpecs with limited airframe ratings "Bell OH-58"
shall take the necessary action to rescind those
specifications. A repair station with such ratings could
conceivably return to service under their rating an OH-58
that has never been issued an FAA TC. The appropriate
rating to be issued should be limited to only those
military helicopters that have been issued a TC either
standard or restricted. In the case of Garlick
helicopters, the OpSpecs should state "Garlick Helicopter
OH-58" and those that were converted by Arrow Falcon
Exporters will state "Arrow Falcon Exporters OH-58."

NOTE: The PMI should be aware and inform their respective
repair stations that part 145 and part 43 DOES NOT PROHIBIT
a repair station from performing maintenance or alterations
on non-type certificated products. However, 14 CFR does
prohibit a repair station from returning that product to
service under their repair station certificate. The reason
for this position is the lack of performance standards such
as manuals, data, etc. These manuals and information have
never been accepted or approved by the FAA.

5. INQUIRIES. This bulletin was developed by the Flight
Standards, Airworthiness Systems and Air Agencies Branch,
AFS-350. Any questions concerning this HBAW should be
directed to AFS-350 at (202) 267-3804.

6. LOCATION. The material covered in this bulletin will
be incorporated in FAA Order 8300.10, Airworthiness
Inspector's Handbook. Until the new material is
incorporated, inspectors should make written reference to
the bulletin in the margin of the affected chapter.



/s/ John Tutora for
Ava L.Mims, Manager,
Aircraft Maintenance Division



Paul Baechler wrote:

In article ,
(Stephen Austin) wrote:

This may or may not apply to the OH-58 but
why not?


I've always been told that it would be almost impossible to get an OH-58 into
the Standard Category because of the modifications necessary. The people I
have asked about this say that, while it could probably be done (one of those
never say never deals), the cost would be totally prohibitive considering the
number of 206's on the market. If I'm not mistaken I think the same holds true
for the UH-1.


It is for all practical purposes impossible to get a UH-1 into Standard
Category, to do so would require replacing most of the basic airframe
structure. Bell kept the military and civil 204/205 completely separate;
different production lines, different spares/component lines, and a
prohibition on the furnishing of civil components/spares to military
users. Of course, after making the aircraft conform, you still have to
get the serial number on the TCDS.

--
Paul Baechler


 




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