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F-14 vs. F-15 accel.



 
 
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  #21  
Old December 17th 04, 01:31 PM
Guy Alcala
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John Carrier wrote:

"Guy Alcala" wrote in message
. ..


snip

My thanks to you and Pechs. My question was based around the Iraqi bugout
to
Iran in DS, when F-15s were sometimes unable to close into AIM-7 range in
a
tail chase of Iraqis at high Q on the deck (I've seen claims of 700 kts
for
some, probably MiG-23s or Fitters, with F-15s firing AIM-7s at 650KCAS @
12,000 feet). Any opinions on whether the F-14 or F-15 had better
endurance
at say M1.2-1.4 @ ca. 12kft, once they accelerated to that speed? I
figure
the AIM-54 would give them a fair range advantage tail-on, but whether it
was
enough to overcome the slower accel due to the drag of carrying a couple,
I
don't know.


650??? I've had F-8's, F-4's and F-14's all faster. The Turkey is a
legitimate 800 knot airplane down low. As to 1.2-1.4 supersonic endurance,
the Turkey hands down. OTOH, Buffaloes are never a good weapon for fighter
vs fighter, even in a tail chase.


Thanks to you and everyone else for their comments.

Guy



  #24  
Old December 17th 04, 03:23 PM
Pechs1
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Ed writes- But, you throw in the "200 or so knots" and there is no doubt of
two
things:

1.) the Tom would do very well in that regime, and
2.) no fighter pilot of the period should ever by flying combat at
that speed! BRBR

I answer-you bet!!

Our .motto' in VF-126, Pacific Fleet Adversary Squadron was 'we're behind you
all the way'.

Meaning the obvious but also no better way to show that getting slow, even in a
1v1, with a better slow speed A/C was DUMB. We saw this all the time early in
training scearios but often beat this outta the fighter guys(USN and USAF)
after they got spanked a few times. Nothing more embarassing than gettting
gunned by an A/C 40 years old(A-4) while in the 'wondermachine'-F-14/15/16/18-
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer
  #25  
Old December 17th 04, 03:26 PM
Pechs1
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John mentions- IME, the best BFM machine in the US inventory is the Hornet.

Certainly the best in a high alpha, min radius phone booth. OTOH, the
F-14B/D can move the fight inexorably upward to a kill. BRBR

Nope-the new Pakastani F-16s that just arrived in Fallon....
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer
  #26  
Old December 17th 04, 08:02 PM
Mike Kanze
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Sparky,

Great story!

I sorta recall Roy Lundeen. If my memory hasn't totally failed he joined
the Lizards as a nugget during our 1974 turnaround, during my last months
there.
--
Mike Kanze

436 Greenbrier Road
Half Moon Bay, California 94019-2259
USA

650-726-7890

"France deserves to be annoyed by as many people as possible, as often as
possible, if only for encouraging Jerry Lewis by telling him that he was a
genius."

- Ian Robinson, CALGARY SUN, 11/14/2004


"Elmshoot" wrote in message
...
There's got to be some
great stories about bagging an ace, or like you said Ed, taking out an
Eagle
in a Talon. Or a Scooter bagging a Hornet. Or even an Intruder or 'Vaark
getting the drop on someone! So let me grab you a pint, pull up a chair,
and let the bragging begin! "There I was..."

Tony



Tony,
There I was in MAWS Medium Attack Warefare school at Whidbey. I think it
was
mid 80's They sometimes called MAWS Top Bomb. Cdr Roy Lundean was OIC of
the
school. Other than bombing we also talked about AA stuff and
considerations for
getting the bad guys to go some place else while you pressed the target to
kill
a lot of bad guys. Instead of killing one at a time.
Our graduation flight was:
We had a joint (USAF) attack at Saylor Creek at mountain home AFB the
mission
was High altitude transit and rendevous with the Varks over Baker VOR Then
to
the entry point of the low level 200 miles of low altitude with the Varks
detaching about 1/2 way around since we didn't go fast enough. Low
altitude
delivery on various tgts in the range then off target to Mountain home for
a
landing. I was the strike lead of 8 Intuders and I think there were 4
Varks. I
think our load out was constructive Rockeyes and one Aim 9. On the
Intruder we
could only do boresight shots with the heater. We actually had a few blue
tubes
so I got one hung on my plane as well as some of the other Intruders. Our
tactic during the low altitude was called the goose. I was in the front my
wing
man was 1 mile at my 6 the rest were in battle box 1 mile abeam each other
on
back. Roy was dash last so he could evaluate and keep an eye on things.
We
were opposed by Vipers from Hill AFB. So everything is going great off on
the
Low level the Varks take a split We see the vipers way up high and they
don't
see us and go after the varks. About that time we are cooking along at
about
420 and here comes 2 F-4's across my nose right to left at about 1 mile. I
couldn't believe my luck. (Later we learned they were just some Happy
Hooligans
out on a low level that crossed through the MOA) About the time I saw them
they saw me. I called on tactical the interlopers and decided that I
would
take a shot at the lead. I had my BN set up the AIM-9 on the ACU, Master
Arm ON
The lead started a climbing left turn against a clear blue sky I pulled up
got
a tone took a shot then rolled back right and resumed the LL my wingman
shot
the F-4 wing man and he resumed. Since they saw us make a move on them
they
started to return the favor I'm sure at some point when they looked down
and
relazed the armada of Intruders they just started to roll in on us and
after
about 3 attacks Roy comes up on guard and tells them to go away they are
already dead.
Mean while the goose makes it to the Tgt good bombs on tgt. They have
smoky
sams being shot at us. what fun! We land at Mountain Home and go to the
bunker
for the debrief.
So there is my F-4 kill story. Mean while the Vark guys come in all PO'ed
because the viper guys called a shot on them from like 2 miles astearn
with 100
knots opening. These Vark guys are screaming in the phone about the BS
shot and
the viper guys finally admitt that it wasn't a good shot so they were
suppost
to send them some money.
After that we all loaded up and went out to Scrubbys BBQ just off base.
Really
good place and we always made it a point to go there for lunch on our
stops
through Mountain Home.
Sparky



  #27  
Old December 18th 04, 12:16 AM
Tony Volk
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LOL- an aerial armada of Intruders! I bet they never, ever, saw that
coming! Cheers,

Tony


  #28  
Old December 18th 04, 01:24 AM
Elmshoot
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LOL- an aerial armada of Intruders! I bet they never, ever, saw that
coming! Cheers,


Tony,
If they had turned us loose in Iran in the mid 80's... Yep in training it was
fun!!!
Sparky
  #29  
Old December 20th 04, 11:11 PM
Frijoles
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John, Ed -- enough already...
....the thread was about the relative performance of two prominent US
fighters, not the relevance of BFM in multi-bogey environments.

BFM training still goes on -- the Hornet is the best BFM platform in the US
inventory (pre-F22, pre-AIM-9X etc). Properly used, its ability to "point"
negates the Ps advantage resident in some other jets, including the B/D
Tomcats.


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:45:01 -0600, "John Carrier"
wrote:

SNIP

IME, the best BFM machine in the US inventory is the Hornet.


Certainly the best in a high alpha, min radius phone booth. OTOH, the
F-14B/D can move the fight inexorably upward to a kill. Hard to do,
wasteful of gas and time (to say nothing of what this kind of engagement
looks like to everyone else near the arena), but doable. In a real-world
multi-bogey fight, such a dazzling display would probably result in two
fireballs.

R / John

And, with that truism, the prosecution rests.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org



  #30  
Old December 20th 04, 11:38 PM
Ed Rasimus
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On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 22:11:59 GMT, "Frijoles"
wrote:

John, Ed -- enough already...
...the thread was about the relative performance of two prominent US
fighters, not the relevance of BFM in multi-bogey environments.

BFM training still goes on -- the Hornet is the best BFM platform in the US
inventory (pre-F22, pre-AIM-9X etc). Properly used, its ability to "point"
negates the Ps advantage resident in some other jets, including the B/D
Tomcats.


BFM is always relevant to a greater or lesser degree, but if you want
to talk "relative performane" you've got to throw in a lot of
stuff--T/W, rate/radius, endurance, range, weapons available and don't
forget the ROE.

When you get to the "teen fighters" there isn't a whole lot of
difference in the basic numbers. Vipers, Eagles, Toms and Bugs all do
a pretty good job and on any given day, one or the other will reign
supreme.

Pride in your system is good, but there aren't many absolutes in
discussion of "The best BFM platform in the US inventory".

Now, there was that day on the White Sands Missile Range that I caught
a pair of early vintage Hornets mucking about at low level over the
Trinity site. Got about 35 feet of film in my AT-38 without them
apparently even knowing that they were becoming movie stars.

IMHO.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
 




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