Aw Rating merger and Today's ASW

Well - in keeping with the recently posted NG charter for this joint,
I offer this up:

Do group members here think this is a good idea?? My days as an AW
(S-3A's & B's) concentrated on sub-hunting and aviation acoustic
analysis, ISAR RADR, MAD, et al. But merging the rating with mechs
and metal smiths seems to me is kinda broad-based.

What are the rating exams going to look like?

In my day, we had AW's in the following specialties:
- acoustic
- non-acoustic
- helo

This article would leave one thinking that the AW rating will now have
numerous sub-specialties; none of which are related to any of the
others, except that they all have gold wings and draw ACIP.

What is the current status of aviation ASW in the fleet today?

Is it even done anymore - even by P-3's?

When was the last time any AW's actually analysed any "grams"?

If there's anybody out there who is closer to the community than I am,
it would be interesting to hear from you.
Regards,


The following was in the latest Navy Times:

Career aircrew sailors merged into AW rating

By Mark D. Faram
Times staff writer


Navy officials approved the merger of all career aircrew sailors into
the Aviation Warfare Systems Operator rating May 2.
As a result, nearly 1,000 career helicopter enlisted aircrew sailors
currently in one of nine aviation maintenance ratings will be
automatically converted to AW by the end of December, unless they ask
not to.

The move will only involve those with one of six helicopter Naval
Enlisted Classifications.

It will have no effect on fixed wing enlisted aircrew … yet. That
could change in the next year, with a proposal being worked to merge
those sailors into the community.

“We need to have a professional enlisted aircrew cadre as the Navy
transitions into the multi-mission helicopters of the future,” said
Chief Aviation Machinist’s Mate (AW/NAC) Brad Hoel.

The merger grew from the Navy’s decision to consolidate its helicopter
fleet from seven different aircraft to just two versions of the MH-60.

“With the work anticipated for the helo aircrew of the future, it was
just too much to expect these sailors to perform the warfare missions
while flying and then ask them to be maintainers as well,” Hoel said.

With the shift to the MH-60 Romeo and Sierra airframes, Navy
helicopters will spend more time on war-fighting missions than hauling
supplies and mail.

Sierras are already in the fleet. The first few Romeos were delivered
to the Navy this year, and are expected to deploy aboard carriers by
2008.

The creation of a rating to handle all of the onboard aircrew duties
of the two airframes will mean better career progression and a greater
variety of billets for enlisted fliers.

Hoel said an advisory panel of senior enlisted aircrew will meet May
17 to begin the process of merging the fixed wing NECs into the
community as well.

“It wasn’t part of the original plan, but now it only makes sense to
look at consolidating the entire community into a single rating,” Hoel
said.

Training pipeline expanded

During the rating transition, those flying in jobs that are more
logistical than warfare-related won’t be expected to cross-train.

“If they’re in a fleet support squadron delivering supplies and mail,
this won’t really do more than just change their title and rating
badge,” Hoel said.

Still, the training pipeline is being expanded to handle more students
expected in the future.

The first advancement exam for the combined rating will be the January
2006 chief’s test. Hoel said advancement tests have been rewritten to
reflect more of the aircrew portions of the rating.

The merger started in March, when career aircrew E-8s and E-9s were
converted to AW. Chiefs will convert in September, and the rest will
make the switch in December.

Sailors will be automatically converted to AW unless they opt out in
writing by July 31.

“If they don’t want to convert, they must submit a form 1306 before
the deadline in July,” Hoel said.

Those opting out of the switch will be taken out of the aircrew
program and get their next orders from the detailer in their current
source rating, he said.

“If they are in a critical specialty, they could be allowed to finish
their current assignment as aircrew and then revert to their source
rating after that,” he said.

Also, anyone opting out will be allowed to continue wearing their gold
aircrew wings, Hoel said, although they will no longer be eligible for
career aircrew billets or enlisted aviation continuation pay.

Who’s affected
The merger of helicopter aircrewmen into the Aviation Warfare Systems
Operator rating will affect sailors holding career aircrew Naval
Enlisted Classifications of 8205, 8211, 8207, 8215, 8225, 8226.

Sailors holding those NECs come from the nine aviation maintenance
“source ratings” previously designated as prerequisites for career
aircrew duty. Those ratings a

• Aviation machinist’s mate.

• Aviation electrician’s mate.

• Aviation ordnanceman.

• Aviation electronics technician.

• Aviation structural mechanic.

• Aviation structural mechanic (safety equipment).

• Aircrew survival equipmentman.

• Two compression ratings: aircraft maintenanceman and avionics
technician; E-9 aircrew in these ratings were converted to AW in
March.

More information is available in NavAdmin 092/05 at
http://www.npc.navy.mil/ReferenceLib...ils/092_05.htm.
Back to top

In article ,
Charlie Wolf wrote:

Well - in keeping with the recently posted NG charter for this joint,
I offer this up:

Do group members here think this is a good idea?? My days as an AW
(S-3A's & B's) concentrated on sub-hunting and aviation acoustic
analysis, ISAR RADR, MAD, et al. But merging the rating with mechs
and metal smiths seems to me is kinda broad-based.

What are the rating exams going to look like?

In my day, we had AW's in the following specialties:
- acoustic
- non-acoustic
- helo

You do know that us helo AW's go through basic and advanced acoustical
training as well as do airborne acoustical analysis in the fleet...right?


This article would leave one thinking that the AW rating will now have
numerous sub-specialties; none of which are related to any of the
others, except that they all have gold wings and draw ACIP.

I have to wonder what this will do to ranks of traditionally
ground-pounder ratings merged (AMS, AO, AE, AD, PR, etc.) of the HS/HSL
community. I'm not sure if things have changed or not, but when I was
in, if you were helo aircrew; you had to be SAR qualified. I seriously
doubt even 1/3 of the people filling those rates in the squadrons I was
in or worked around could have made it through SAR school.

I have to wonder what percentage of those other rates can even make it
through the training pipeline...much less qualify for the security
clearances traditionally required of the AW rating.


It sounds to me that they may soften up and dumb down all requirements
across the board. That certainly will give them the numbers (the Navy
always seems to be short of SAR people), but I have to believe the human
element of helo ASW will be much less effective.



--Mike

Michael Wise wrote in
:

In article ,
Charlie Wolf wrote:

Well - in keeping with the recently posted NG charter for this joint,
I offer this up:

Do group members here think this is a good idea?? My days as an AW
(S-3A's & B's) concentrated on sub-hunting and aviation acoustic
analysis, ISAR RADR, MAD, et al. But merging the rating with mechs
and metal smiths seems to me is kinda broad-based.

What are the rating exams going to look like?

In my day, we had AW's in the following specialties:
- acoustic
- non-acoustic
- helo

You do know that us helo AW's go through basic and advanced acoustical
training as well as do airborne acoustical analysis in the
fleet...right?


This article would leave one thinking that the AW rating will now
have numerous sub-specialties; none of which are related to any of
the others, except that they all have gold wings and draw ACIP.

I have to wonder what this will do to ranks of traditionally
ground-pounder ratings merged (AMS, AO, AE, AD, PR, etc.) of the
HS/HSL community. I'm not sure if things have changed or not, but when
I was in, if you were helo aircrew; you had to be SAR qualified. I
seriously doubt even 1/3 of the people filling those rates in the
squadrons I was in or worked around could have made it through SAR
school.

I have to wonder what percentage of those other rates can even make it
through the training pipeline...much less qualify for the security
clearances traditionally required of the AW rating.


It sounds to me that they may soften up and dumb down all requirements
across the board. That certainly will give them the numbers (the Navy
always seems to be short of SAR people), but I have to believe the
human element of helo ASW will be much less effective.

The conversion is ONLY for folks in the affected ratings who are
AIRCREW. Many of these people are not working directly in their ratings
anyway, so it would have little negative effect on shop readiness. In
fact, it migh inprove shop manning because they would no longer have to
eat these unfilled billets "out of hide".

Dave in San Diego

Ratings come, ratings go, based on need. I remember all the tears when the
ALs had to start earning their money.

"Charlie Wolf" wrote in message
...
Well - in keeping with the recently posted NG charter for this joint,
I offer this up:

Do group members here think this is a good idea?? My days as an AW
(S-3A's & B's) concentrated on sub-hunting and aviation acoustic
analysis, ISAR RADR, MAD, et al. But merging the rating with mechs
and metal smiths seems to me is kinda broad-based.

What are the rating exams going to look like?

In my day, we had AW's in the following specialties:
- acoustic
- non-acoustic
- helo

This article would leave one thinking that the AW rating will now have
numerous sub-specialties; none of which are related to any of the
others, except that they all have gold wings and draw ACIP.

What is the current status of aviation ASW in the fleet today?

Is it even done anymore - even by P-3's?

When was the last time any AW's actually analysed any "grams"?

If there's anybody out there who is closer to the community than I am,
it would be interesting to hear from you.
Regards,


The following was in the latest Navy Times:

Career aircrew sailors merged into AW rating

By Mark D. Faram
Times staff writer


Navy officials approved the merger of all career aircrew sailors into
the Aviation Warfare Systems Operator rating May 2.
As a result, nearly 1,000 career helicopter enlisted aircrew sailors
currently in one of nine aviation maintenance ratings will be
automatically converted to AW by the end of December, unless they ask
not to.

The move will only involve those with one of six helicopter Naval
Enlisted Classifications.

It will have no effect on fixed wing enlisted aircrew . yet. That
could change in the next year, with a proposal being worked to merge
those sailors into the community.

"We need to have a professional enlisted aircrew cadre as the Navy
transitions into the multi-mission helicopters of the future," said
Chief Aviation Machinist's Mate (AW/NAC) Brad Hoel.

The merger grew from the Navy's decision to consolidate its helicopter
fleet from seven different aircraft to just two versions of the MH-60.

"With the work anticipated for the helo aircrew of the future, it was
just too much to expect these sailors to perform the warfare missions
while flying and then ask them to be maintainers as well," Hoel said.

With the shift to the MH-60 Romeo and Sierra airframes, Navy
helicopters will spend more time on war-fighting missions than hauling
supplies and mail.

Sierras are already in the fleet. The first few Romeos were delivered
to the Navy this year, and are expected to deploy aboard carriers by
2008.

The creation of a rating to handle all of the onboard aircrew duties
of the two airframes will mean better career progression and a greater
variety of billets for enlisted fliers.

Hoel said an advisory panel of senior enlisted aircrew will meet May
17 to begin the process of merging the fixed wing NECs into the
community as well.

"It wasn't part of the original plan, but now it only makes sense to
look at consolidating the entire community into a single rating," Hoel
said.

Training pipeline expanded

During the rating transition, those flying in jobs that are more
logistical than warfare-related won't be expected to cross-train.

"If they're in a fleet support squadron delivering supplies and mail,
this won't really do more than just change their title and rating
badge," Hoel said.

Still, the training pipeline is being expanded to handle more students
expected in the future.

The first advancement exam for the combined rating will be the January
2006 chief's test. Hoel said advancement tests have been rewritten to
reflect more of the aircrew portions of the rating.

The merger started in March, when career aircrew E-8s and E-9s were
converted to AW. Chiefs will convert in September, and the rest will
make the switch in December.

Sailors will be automatically converted to AW unless they opt out in
writing by July 31.

"If they don't want to convert, they must submit a form 1306 before
the deadline in July," Hoel said.

Those opting out of the switch will be taken out of the aircrew
program and get their next orders from the detailer in their current
source rating, he said.

"If they are in a critical specialty, they could be allowed to finish
their current assignment as aircrew and then revert to their source
rating after that," he said.

Also, anyone opting out will be allowed to continue wearing their gold
aircrew wings, Hoel said, although they will no longer be eligible for
career aircrew billets or enlisted aviation continuation pay.

Who's affected
The merger of helicopter aircrewmen into the Aviation Warfare Systems
Operator rating will affect sailors holding career aircrew Naval
Enlisted Classifications of 8205, 8211, 8207, 8215, 8225, 8226.

Sailors holding those NECs come from the nine aviation maintenance
"source ratings" previously designated as prerequisites for career
aircrew duty. Those ratings a

. Aviation machinist's mate.

. Aviation electrician's mate.

. Aviation ordnanceman.

. Aviation electronics technician.

. Aviation structural mechanic.

. Aviation structural mechanic (safety equipment).

. Aircrew survival equipmentman.

. Two compression ratings: aircraft maintenanceman and avionics
technician; E-9 aircrew in these ratings were converted to AW in
March.

More information is available in NavAdmin 092/05 at
http://www.npc.navy.mil/ReferenceLib...ils/092_05.htm.
Back to top

On Thu, 12 May 2005 19:22:43 GMT, Michael Wise
wrote:

In article ,
Charlie Wolf wrote:

Well - in keeping with the recently posted NG charter for this joint,
I offer this up:

Do group members here think this is a good idea?? My days as an AW
(S-3A's & B's) concentrated on sub-hunting and aviation acoustic
analysis, ISAR RADR, MAD, et al. But merging the rating with mechs
and metal smiths seems to me is kinda broad-based.

What are the rating exams going to look like?

In my day, we had AW's in the following specialties:
- acoustic
- non-acoustic
- helo

You do know that us helo AW's go through basic and advanced acoustical
training as well as do airborne acoustical analysis in the fleet...right?
Well ... perhaps some background is necessary here. I retired in 1992
and I never served in the helo community, so...
What I know about that community is pretty much contained in your
statement above. I was always under the impression that the rating
exams we took back then were kinda "platform" specific". That's why I
put the helo thing in there.



This article would leave one thinking that the AW rating will now have
numerous sub-specialties; none of which are related to any of the
others, except that they all have gold wings and draw ACIP.

I have to wonder what this will do to ranks of traditionally
ground-pounder ratings merged (AMS, AO, AE, AD, PR, etc.) of the HS/HSL
community. I'm not sure if things have changed or not, but when I was
in, if you were helo aircrew; you had to be SAR qualified. I seriously
doubt even 1/3 of the people filling those rates in the squadrons I was
in or worked around could have made it through SAR school.
Those are the same kind of questions that came to my mind - but you
put it into words better than me...


I have to wonder what percentage of those other rates can even make it
through the training pipeline...much less qualify for the security
clearances traditionally required of the AW rating.


It sounds to me that they may soften up and dumb down all requirements
across the board. That certainly will give them the numbers (the Navy
always seems to be short of SAR people), but I have to believe the human
element of helo ASW will be much less effective.
Interesting to hear the "rotor-head" perspective (no offense intended
- I say that in the nicest possible way)

Thanks.
Regards,




--Mike

Charlie Wolf wrote:

What are the rating exams going to look like?

Step back a bit, how about the recommendations?

PAR's (AKA Practical Factors) are supposed to be signed off honestly as
a requisite before taking the exam. When the base becomes broader what
truly are the chances the person will have even seen some of them.

For example as an AC I came from a smaller rating. Yet a sailor first
detailed to a CV can't meet the functions of a control tower.
Vice-versa applies to the sailor detailed to an outlying VFR tower who
only has pictures in the 3&2 manual to be reminded what a radar scope
looks like.

I recall when ADJ and ADR were separate until ADCS. At that point the
senior and master chiefs are likely administrative personnel anyway. At
least then if you received an ADR2 you knew he should be skilled to work
on the station C-117.