$1 billion BMS Ooops...

On 3/16/21 12:05 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Craig Reinholt wrote on 3/16/2021 7:57 AM:
One issue not discussed is the duration / altitude of the launch. At
Ely, and other sites (Williams is one), the launch may run well over
20 minutes and altitude gain over 3000 feet hunting for lift. The
numbers supplied by the manufacturers are for a 1500' gain under 10
minutes. That difference will put a severe dent on the retrieve
distances.
Craig

That hasn't been my experience at Ely, where a 2000' launch has almost
always done the job, but maybe I'm just lucky :^)Â* Williams is a special
case, and some FES will undoubtedly have to take tows just to get to the
soaring. It shouldn't be a problem for electrics with 50+ mile range.
Note that "the numbers" vary greatly between electric gliders, with some
older FES gliders having very limited climbs, and the newer mast-mounted
motor systems by Schleicher, Jonkers, and others offering 9,000'-13,000'
climbs.


Well the Antares was supposed to have 10K feet climb capability, but in
reality it was a whole lot less. That shows the danger of comparing
real life performance of existing products with spec sheets of future
products. Don't suppose you went to Poland to verify the performance
numbers?

Don't suppose you went to Poland to verify the performance
numbers?

Are there actually any GP-15 gliders in the hands of private owners? Or are they still on some imaginary delivery schedule? The only one I know of that was in the US was sent back for "upgrades." Don't know if it actually flew before going "home."

On Tuesday, March 16, 2021 at 5:57:05 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
2G wrote on 3/15/2021 10:59 PM:
On Monday, March 15, 2021 at 5:10:51 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
2G wrote on 3/15/2021 3:31 PM:
On Saturday, March 13, 2021 at 7:59:59 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
2G wrote on 3/13/2021 11:55 AM:
On Friday, March 12, 2021 at 7:27:24 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Dan Marotta wrote on 3/12/2021 10:30 AM:
Hows a self launch starting at 6,200' MSL up to 18,000' MSL followed by a distance of 350
nautical miles? That's what I'll be doing in June to relocate the Stemme from Moriarty, NM to
Rifle, CO. And it might use half a tank of gas.

Of course, I'll only do it that way if soaring conditions don't support gliding the whole way.

Dan
5J

On 3/11/21 6:18 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:


How long a self-retrieve distance is the minimum acceptable to you?

Ok, you are not a current candidate for an electric motorglider (I knew that already :^) )

But, I'm still interested in Waremark's far smaller requirements. So far, the majority of the
pilots I've talked to that are considering moving to an electric self-launcher think 100 sm is
enough retrieve distance, and some think 50 miles is plenty. These are the people that are
willing to drive from where they live to where they want to fly. I'm one of those people,
because my wife and I like to travel in a motorhome with her sewing projects and sewing machine
in it.

Those must be flat-landers that don't have to clear even taller hills, let alone mountains. Your self-retrieve "distance" vanishes the moment you have to climb to clear an obstacle. Also, the electric self-launchers like the GP15 don't specify the retrieve distance when launching at MTOW. Think of it as getting you to a safe out-landing field which is how one pilot did at Ely last summer (and he took tows).
According to figures I have for the GP15, launching to 2600' agl at 8.5lb/ft2 uses about 20% of
the available energy (big battery); launching at 12 lb/ft2 would use about 28%. So, max
retrieve range would decrease comparably from 93 sm to 84 sm. Catch a thermal sooner, stop the
motor at 2000' agl, and it'd use 22%, so wold get 90 sm with the 12 lb/ft2 launch.

How often have you had to motor home more than 90 sm?
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Just a few times, but I wasn't flying a 15M glider, either. In two seasons of flying the 31Mi I have only done one precautionary 5 mile "retrieve" only because I didn't want to do a marginal glide. Again, you ignore having to climb over obstacles. What would happen if you were 70 sm out AND had to climb 3,000 ft? And, then, throw in a 20 kt headwind. I probably wouldn't even consider flying the GP15 at Ely.
The answer to the situation you propose (not enough range to get home) is a simple one: land at
the airport that makes for the shortest retrieve before the battery runs out, wait for the
towplane (or trailer) to come, go home. At Ely, that would be 60+ miles, since airports are so
far apart; at Parowan, or home, as close as 20 miles.

The main difficulty would likely be the wind, not the 3000' climb, as using a climb/glide
flight for the return would already have climbs that exceeded that.

Anyway, relax a bit, don't let your range anxiety cloud your thinking. I have 4000+ hours in a
motorgliders, much of it in places with mountains - as you know. I assure you, I have used all
that experience when considering what glider is suitable for me. After all, I did write the
book on operating motorgliders :^)
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

The case I cited the pilot did not come remotely close to making it to an airport: he found a small field that was landable. Retrieve was by 4WD and he got back to Ely at 2am. I considered that fortunate as one of the retrieves I went on the pilot didn't get back until more than a day later. That was the retrieve from hell which included dealing with a thunderstorm.
No, there is no way I would consider flying the GP15 out of Ely and I, too, have in excess of 4,000 hr of cross country glider time.

The Ely type of area is the major reason I chose the 8.4kWh battery for my GP15, instead of the
4.7kWh battery, as it doubles the launch+retrieve distance. The 4.7 kWh battery is more
attractive in areas with more airports, as it allows a lower minimum wing loading, a higher
wing loading with only water ballast, and is $5000 cheaper. But many pilots choose to fly in
Ely conditions with 15M gliders with ZERO self-retrieve distance, and are clever enough to
avoid retrieves from hell. I have good reason to believe I can do the same with "only" 90 miles
of retrieve distance ;^)
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

I was stating what I would and would not do - you, of course, have to make your own decisions. Landing out in eastern Nevada is serious business; some may chose to fly non-motorized gliders there (which, in my mind, the GP15 is) and get away with it. I see it done routinely. But I won't be one of them. It also should be noted that they are flying high performance gliders (such as the ASG29) that are heavily ballasted; the GP15 is not in this category. The glider should be able to make a 20 nm glide using no more than 3,000 ft into a headwind. This is what it takes to cross valleys in Nevada and still be above the mountains on the other side with a comfortable margin.

Tom

kinsell wrote on 3/16/2021 11:39 AM:
On 3/16/21 12:05 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Craig Reinholt wrote on 3/16/2021 7:57 AM:
One issue not discussed is the duration / altitude of the launch. At Ely, and other sites
(Williams is one), the launch may run well over 20 minutes and altitude gain over 3000 feet
hunting for lift. The numbers supplied by the manufacturers are for a 1500' gain under 10
minutes. That difference will put a severe dent on the retrieve distances.
Craig

That hasn't been my experience at Ely, where a 2000' launch has almost always done the job,
but maybe I'm just lucky :^)* Williams is a special case, and some FES will undoubtedly have
to take tows just to get to the soaring. It shouldn't be a problem for electrics with 50+
mile range. Note that "the numbers" vary greatly between electric gliders, with some older
FES gliders having very limited climbs, and the newer mast-mounted motor systems by
Schleicher, Jonkers, and others offering 9,000'-13,000' climbs.


Well the Antares was supposed to have 10K feet climb capability, but in reality it was a whole
lot less.* That shows the danger of* comparing real life performance of existing products with
spec sheets of future products.* Don't suppose you went to Poland to verify the performance
numbers?

A whole lot of experience and development has been gained since the Antares debut 18 years ago,
so I'm willing to accept the current claims by Schleicher, Schmepp-Hirth, and Jonkers. We don't
have flight reports for production GP15 gliders, but the power performance numbers on the spec
sheets are conservative when compared to other manufacturers' claims, so I am also willing to
accept GP's numbers as being close to reality.

I did not go to Poland, but dealer (Tom Holloran) did go to Poland and fly a GP15. Apparently,
he thought it was a very good glider, as he became the dealer, and one of the first few will be
his glider.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Mark Mocho wrote on 3/16/2021 11:44 AM:
Don't suppose you went to Poland to verify the performance
numbers?

Are there actually any GP-15 gliders in the hands of private owners? Or are they still on some imaginary delivery schedule? The only one I know of that was in the US was sent back for "upgrades." Don't know if it actually flew before going "home."

No GP15 gliders are in the hands of owners. The February factory report indicated the first two
GP15s might ship in late March, but no March report so far. The one at the convention has been
sold, and is on it's way to Poland for updates that will bring it close to current production
specifications.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

2G wrote on 3/16/2021 12:46 PM:
On Tuesday, March 16, 2021 at 5:57:05 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
2G wrote on 3/15/2021 10:59 PM:
...
Those must be flat-landers that don't have to clear even taller hills, let alone mountains. Your self-retrieve "distance" vanishes the moment you have to climb to clear an obstacle. Also, the electric self-launchers like the GP15 don't specify the retrieve distance when launching at MTOW. Think of it as getting you to a safe out-landing field which is how one pilot did at Ely last summer (and he took tows).
According to figures I have for the GP15, launching to 2600' agl at 8.5lb/ft2 uses about 20% of
the available energy (big battery); launching at 12 lb/ft2 would use about 28%. So, max
retrieve range would decrease comparably from 93 sm to 84 sm. Catch a thermal sooner, stop the
motor at 2000' agl, and it'd use 22%, so wold get 90 sm with the 12 lb/ft2 launch.

How often have you had to motor home more than 90 sm?
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Just a few times, but I wasn't flying a 15M glider, either. In two seasons of flying the 31Mi I have only done one precautionary 5 mile "retrieve" only because I didn't want to do a marginal glide. Again, you ignore having to climb over obstacles. What would happen if you were 70 sm out AND had to climb 3,000 ft? And, then, throw in a 20 kt headwind. I probably wouldn't even consider flying the GP15 at Ely.
The answer to the situation you propose (not enough range to get home) is a simple one: land at
the airport that makes for the shortest retrieve before the battery runs out, wait for the
towplane (or trailer) to come, go home. At Ely, that would be 60+ miles, since airports are so
far apart; at Parowan, or home, as close as 20 miles.

The main difficulty would likely be the wind, not the 3000' climb, as using a climb/glide
flight for the return would already have climbs that exceeded that.

Anyway, relax a bit, don't let your range anxiety cloud your thinking. I have 4000+ hours in a
motorgliders, much of it in places with mountains - as you know. I assure you, I have used all
that experience when considering what glider is suitable for me. After all, I did write the
book on operating motorgliders :^)
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

The case I cited the pilot did not come remotely close to making it to an airport: he found a small field that was landable. Retrieve was by 4WD and he got back to Ely at 2am. I considered that fortunate as one of the retrieves I went on the pilot didn't get back until more than a day later. That was the retrieve from hell which included dealing with a thunderstorm.
No, there is no way I would consider flying the GP15 out of Ely and I, too, have in excess of 4,000 hr of cross country glider time.

The Ely type of area is the major reason I chose the 8.4kWh battery for my GP15, instead of the
4.7kWh battery, as it doubles the launch+retrieve distance. The 4.7 kWh battery is more
attractive in areas with more airports, as it allows a lower minimum wing loading, a higher
wing loading with only water ballast, and is $5000 cheaper. But many pilots choose to fly in
Ely conditions with 15M gliders with ZERO self-retrieve distance, and are clever enough to
avoid retrieves from hell. I have good reason to believe I can do the same with "only" 90 miles
of retrieve distance ;^)
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

I was stating what I would and would not do - you, of course, have to make your own decisions. Landing out in eastern Nevada is serious business; some may chose to fly non-motorized gliders there (which, in my mind, the GP15 is) and get away with it. I see it done routinely. But I won't be one of them. It also should be noted that they are flying high performance gliders (such as the ASG29) that are heavily ballasted; the GP15 is not in this category. The glider should be able to make a 20 nm glide using no more than 3,000 ft into a headwind. This is what it takes to cross valleys in Nevada and still be above the mountains on the other side with a comfortable margin.

The GP15 has a maximum wing loading of 13.75 lb/ft2, three pounds more than, say, the 10.8
lb/ft2 of an ASH31Mi :^)

More likely, I will be flying it at 11 lb/ft2, which is 2.5 lb/ft2 higher than the ASH26E I
usually fly at Ely. And, since the GP15 L/D is almost identical to my ASH26E, I am sure I will
be even more comfortable than I am now.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

That makes it sound like you are depending on the engine to get you out of bad situations. Not a good idea in an electric or ICE. On the other hand people have been flying from Ely for decades without engines, so a working one really isn't necessary - just convenient. I suspect Eric will not have a problem.
On Tuesday, March 16, 2021 at 12:46:10 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, March 16, 2021 at 5:57:05 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
2G wrote on 3/15/2021 10:59 PM:
On Monday, March 15, 2021 at 5:10:51 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
2G wrote on 3/15/2021 3:31 PM:
On Saturday, March 13, 2021 at 7:59:59 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
2G wrote on 3/13/2021 11:55 AM:
On Friday, March 12, 2021 at 7:27:24 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Dan Marotta wrote on 3/12/2021 10:30 AM:
Hows a self launch starting at 6,200' MSL up to 18,000' MSL followed by a distance of 350
nautical miles? That's what I'll be doing in June to relocate the Stemme from Moriarty, NM to
Rifle, CO. And it might use half a tank of gas.

Of course, I'll only do it that way if soaring conditions don't support gliding the whole way.

Dan
5J

On 3/11/21 6:18 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:


How long a self-retrieve distance is the minimum acceptable to you?

Ok, you are not a current candidate for an electric motorglider (I knew that already :^) )

But, I'm still interested in Waremark's far smaller requirements.. So far, the majority of the
pilots I've talked to that are considering moving to an electric self-launcher think 100 sm is
enough retrieve distance, and some think 50 miles is plenty. These are the people that are
willing to drive from where they live to where they want to fly. I'm one of those people,
because my wife and I like to travel in a motorhome with her sewing projects and sewing machine
in it.

Those must be flat-landers that don't have to clear even taller hills, let alone mountains. Your self-retrieve "distance" vanishes the moment you have to climb to clear an obstacle. Also, the electric self-launchers like the GP15 don't specify the retrieve distance when launching at MTOW. Think of it as getting you to a safe out-landing field which is how one pilot did at Ely last summer (and he took tows).
According to figures I have for the GP15, launching to 2600' agl at 8.5lb/ft2 uses about 20% of
the available energy (big battery); launching at 12 lb/ft2 would use about 28%. So, max
retrieve range would decrease comparably from 93 sm to 84 sm. Catch a thermal sooner, stop the
motor at 2000' agl, and it'd use 22%, so wold get 90 sm with the 12 lb/ft2 launch.

How often have you had to motor home more than 90 sm?
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Just a few times, but I wasn't flying a 15M glider, either. In two seasons of flying the 31Mi I have only done one precautionary 5 mile "retrieve" only because I didn't want to do a marginal glide. Again, you ignore having to climb over obstacles. What would happen if you were 70 sm out AND had to climb 3,000 ft? And, then, throw in a 20 kt headwind. I probably wouldn't even consider flying the GP15 at Ely.
The answer to the situation you propose (not enough range to get home) is a simple one: land at
the airport that makes for the shortest retrieve before the battery runs out, wait for the
towplane (or trailer) to come, go home. At Ely, that would be 60+ miles, since airports are so
far apart; at Parowan, or home, as close as 20 miles.

The main difficulty would likely be the wind, not the 3000' climb, as using a climb/glide
flight for the return would already have climbs that exceeded that.

Anyway, relax a bit, don't let your range anxiety cloud your thinking. I have 4000+ hours in a
motorgliders, much of it in places with mountains - as you know. I assure you, I have used all
that experience when considering what glider is suitable for me. After all, I did write the
book on operating motorgliders :^)
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

The case I cited the pilot did not come remotely close to making it to an airport: he found a small field that was landable. Retrieve was by 4WD and he got back to Ely at 2am. I considered that fortunate as one of the retrieves I went on the pilot didn't get back until more than a day later. That was the retrieve from hell which included dealing with a thunderstorm.
No, there is no way I would consider flying the GP15 out of Ely and I, too, have in excess of 4,000 hr of cross country glider time.

The Ely type of area is the major reason I chose the 8.4kWh battery for my GP15, instead of the
4.7kWh battery, as it doubles the launch+retrieve distance. The 4.7 kWh battery is more
attractive in areas with more airports, as it allows a lower minimum wing loading, a higher
wing loading with only water ballast, and is $5000 cheaper. But many pilots choose to fly in
Ely conditions with 15M gliders with ZERO self-retrieve distance, and are clever enough to
avoid retrieves from hell. I have good reason to believe I can do the same with "only" 90 miles
of retrieve distance ;^)
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
I was stating what I would and would not do - you, of course, have to make your own decisions. Landing out in eastern Nevada is serious business; some may chose to fly non-motorized gliders there (which, in my mind, the GP15 is) and get away with it. I see it done routinely. But I won't be one of them. It also should be noted that they are flying high performance gliders (such as the ASG29) that are heavily ballasted; the GP15 is not in this category. The glider should be able to make a 20 nm glide using no more than 3,000 ft into a headwind. This is what it takes to cross valleys in Nevada and still be above the mountains on the other side with a comfortable margin.

Tom

Tom, Some of us fly from Ely for 20 years without any motor...
2 landouts in 20 years, none resulted in retrieve from hell. I am still planning to fly there with no motor.
Just sayin...
I hope I didn’t jinx it...

Ramy

On Monday, March 15, 2021 at 10:59:53 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Monday, March 15, 2021 at 5:10:51 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
2G wrote on 3/15/2021 3:31 PM:
On Saturday, March 13, 2021 at 7:59:59 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
2G wrote on 3/13/2021 11:55 AM:
On Friday, March 12, 2021 at 7:27:24 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Dan Marotta wrote on 3/12/2021 10:30 AM:
Hows a self launch starting at 6,200' MSL up to 18,000' MSL followed by a distance of 350
nautical miles? That's what I'll be doing in June to relocate the Stemme from Moriarty, NM to
Rifle, CO. And it might use half a tank of gas.

Of course, I'll only do it that way if soaring conditions don't support gliding the whole way.

Dan
5J

On 3/11/21 6:18 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:


How long a self-retrieve distance is the minimum acceptable to you?

Ok, you are not a current candidate for an electric motorglider (I knew that already :^) )

But, I'm still interested in Waremark's far smaller requirements. So far, the majority of the
pilots I've talked to that are considering moving to an electric self-launcher think 100 sm is
enough retrieve distance, and some think 50 miles is plenty. These are the people that are
willing to drive from where they live to where they want to fly. I'm one of those people,
because my wife and I like to travel in a motorhome with her sewing projects and sewing machine
in it.

Those must be flat-landers that don't have to clear even taller hills, let alone mountains. Your self-retrieve "distance" vanishes the moment you have to climb to clear an obstacle. Also, the electric self-launchers like the GP15 don't specify the retrieve distance when launching at MTOW. Think of it as getting you to a safe out-landing field which is how one pilot did at Ely last summer (and he took tows).
According to figures I have for the GP15, launching to 2600' agl at 8.5lb/ft2 uses about 20% of
the available energy (big battery); launching at 12 lb/ft2 would use about 28%. So, max
retrieve range would decrease comparably from 93 sm to 84 sm. Catch a thermal sooner, stop the
motor at 2000' agl, and it'd use 22%, so wold get 90 sm with the 12 lb/ft2 launch.

How often have you had to motor home more than 90 sm?
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Just a few times, but I wasn't flying a 15M glider, either. In two seasons of flying the 31Mi I have only done one precautionary 5 mile "retrieve" only because I didn't want to do a marginal glide. Again, you ignore having to climb over obstacles. What would happen if you were 70 sm out AND had to climb 3,000 ft? And, then, throw in a 20 kt headwind. I probably wouldn't even consider flying the GP15 at Ely.
The answer to the situation you propose (not enough range to get home) is a simple one: land at
the airport that makes for the shortest retrieve before the battery runs out, wait for the
towplane (or trailer) to come, go home. At Ely, that would be 60+ miles, since airports are so
far apart; at Parowan, or home, as close as 20 miles.

The main difficulty would likely be the wind, not the 3000' climb, as using a climb/glide
flight for the return would already have climbs that exceeded that.

Anyway, relax a bit, don't let your range anxiety cloud your thinking. I have 4000+ hours in a
motorgliders, much of it in places with mountains - as you know. I assure you, I have used all
that experience when considering what glider is suitable for me. After all, I did write the
book on operating motorgliders :^)
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
The case I cited the pilot did not come remotely close to making it to an airport: he found a small field that was landable. Retrieve was by 4WD and he got back to Ely at 2am. I considered that fortunate as one of the retrieves I went on the pilot didn't get back until more than a day later. That was the retrieve from hell which included dealing with a thunderstorm.
No, there is no way I would consider flying the GP15 out of Ely and I, too, have in excess of 4,000 hr of cross country glider time.

Tom

2G wrote on 3/16/2021 12:46 PM:
Landing out in eastern Nevada is serious business; some may chose to fly non-motorized gliders there (which, in my mind, the GP15 is) and get away with it.

I forgot to respond to the "non-motorized" portion of your remarks. Perhaps you will be
surprised (or at least interested) to learn the GP15 climb rate from the runway on a typical
flying day at Ely will be nearly double the climb rate of my ASH26E. A major reason is the
electric motor still has the same power at 9000' DA, while the carbureted Wankel has lost about
18%. The better climb on takeoff in high density altitudes was an important factor in my
choice. It's not important at Ely, but it is at Parowan, and a few other places I've flown (or
wanted to fly but decided it was marginal).

Now, I realize you think 90 miles of self-retrieve is the same as zero miles, but that view is
not shared by every "pure" glider pilot out there!

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On 3/16/2021 3:49 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
...I'm willing to accept the current claims by Schleicher, Schmepp-Hirth, and Jonkers.
... I am also willing to accept GP's numbers as being close to reality.

Based on what - magical thinking?
Because others claim something similar but also have not demonstrated?

I did not go to Poland, but dealer (Tom Holloran) did go to Poland and
fly a GP15. Apparently, he thought it was a very good glider, as he
became the dealer, and one of the first few will be his glider.

Been there, done that. OK it was Germany not Poland ;-)