stemme flaperon mix control

i'm considering buying a used s10-vt, and have so been flying one in
the x-plane flight simulator extensively as of late. but i think it's
model of the control surfaces is inaccurate and so am hoping someone
could provide me with some info regarding the
flaperons.

specifically, an australian POH that i found says there are 6
positions for the flaps: -10, -5, 0, +5, +10, and +16. a brazilian
certification form confirms this, and further says that the ailerons
can deflect from -16 to +10. what i don't understand, perhaps because
i'm new to full-span flaperons, is how the 6 flap positions affect the
range through which the ailerons can move. how to say this
succinctly... hmmm: irrespective of the flap position, can
one always move the ailerons through 26 degrees? in other words, with
flaps set at 0, do the ailerons move from -16 to +10, and with flaps
at +16, do they then range from 0 to +26? or does it work some other
way?

i ask, b/c in the x-plane simulator, with full flaps in (+16), aileron
input has no effect on flaperon position. essentially there is no
roll control with full flaps other than to use the rudder and then
wait for the roll coupling. what the x-plane model does is to have
flap input limit the upward deflection of the flaperons without
increasing the possible downward deflection. and
with full flaps, the movement is completely restricted to none at
all. this can't be how it really works, or is it?

thanks in advance for any info.

On Thu, 9 Oct 2008 05:47:09 -0700 (PDT), bjarthur
wrote:

i ask, b/c in the x-plane simulator, with full flaps in (+16), aileron
input has no effect on flaperon position. essentially there is no
roll control with full flaps

I don't know about the geometry, but I can tell you from my past
experience in the S-10V that you have very poor roll control with the
ailerons, when flap are set to positive. Not to mention to full
positive.

If you are not flying very slowly, moving the flap lever to positive
and full positive requires a condiderable effort, too.

Zero is quite good for manouvres, in the pattern and when centering
thermals.

Aldo Cernezzi

On Oct 9, 5:47*am, bjarthur wrote:
can deflect from -16 to +10. *what i don't understand, perhaps because
i'm new to full-span flaperons, is how the 6 flap positions affect the
range through which the ailerons can move.
i ask, b/c in the x-plane simulator, with full flaps in (+16), aileron
input has no effect on flaperon position. *essentially there is no
roll control with full flaps other than to use the rudder and then
wait for the roll coupling.


You are right about the settings being -10, -5, 0, +5, +10 and +16. As
to flaps and ailerons, I believe all S10's (S10, S10V and S10VT) have
the same aileron and flap mixing, but can speak from personal
experience only about the VT. It has flaps that run along the inner
wing (the wings fold for hangaring) and ailerons along the outer wing.
There is a mixer which causes a left or right stick move (an aileron
command) to also move the flaps, but the amount of mixing depends on
the flap setting. With positive flap settings, stick motions do not
(and probably cannot) move the flaps as much. This is most exaggerated
at +16.

However, even with +16, I have never experienced a problem with
inadequate roll response. Compared to some other long wing ships, such
as the ASH25, the S10 is quite responsive in roll. The ship is
specified to have a 4 sec roll rate from a 45 degree bank to 45 in the
other direction. I suspect that is with 0 flaps, but have never timed
it.

BTW, is the S10VT model included in X-plane's basic software or was
that an outside addition. In the latter event, where did you find it?
Thanks and hoping this helps.

Martin

thanks martin. but i'm confused now. you make it seem like the flaps
can move independently of the ailerons. the descriptions of the S10
i've seen specify it as having "full-span flaperons", which i took to
mean that the inboard and outboard control surfaces on the foldable
wings were physically attached when assembled such that they were
always at the same angle. if this is not the case, then i think i'm
beginning to understand. however, if it's not the case, then why call
them flaperons? simply because there is a mixer which coordinates
their movement?

a few responses i've received directly:

==============
Don't know about the stemme in particular, but it is quite common for
flap positions to affect aileron travel. This happens in my ASW27. The
flaps and ailerons move together, so if the flaps are in
"down"
position, both ailerons are "down." Then the "up" aileron may not
be
able to move to its full upward position when the stick goes all the
way in one direction. For this reason in the ASW27, when you move the
flaps to landing position, the ailerons cease to follow along and
instead move up to zero degrees, in order to give full aileron
authority. I would not be surprised if the programmers of x plane did
not include this subtlety of the flap-aileron mixer system.

===============
I own an S10 VT and would like to know details about how to get it
into the x-plane simulator. Shall be a great way of practicing
while
at
home.
By the way, have a look at the Condor Flight Simulator. For soaring
training and competition, there is nothing similar.

===============
In real life, I use +10 degrees for landing. This gives adequate
aileron response for landing. I do not know the technical data for
the
mixing of the ailerons and flaps but they will reduce roll rate as you
increase the flap position toward LAND (+16 degrees). I sometimes use
full flaps for landing "short" with light wind or wind down the
runway.
My initial advice to a new Stemme pilot is to use +10 degrees flaps
for
landing.

===============
Yes you do have aileron control with full landing flaps. It will seem
to be a little restrictive and it does fly with a slower roll rate
with
full flaps but they do continue to control at a slower roll rate.

On Oct 10, 11:45*am, bjarthur wrote:
thanks martin. *but i'm confused now. *you make it seem like the flaps
can move independently of the ailerons. *the descriptions of the S10
i've seen specify it as having "full-span flaperons", which i took to
mean that the inboard and outboard control surfaces on the foldable
wings were physically attached when assembled such that they were
always at the same angle. *if this is not the case, then i think i'm
beginning to understand. *however, if it's not the case, then why call
them flaperons? *simply because there is a mixer which coordinates
their movement?

The flaps and ailerons can move somewhat independently, being
connected via the "mixer" I mentioned. In any event, roll response in
a Stemme is very good for such a long-winged (23 meter) ship.

Hope this helps.

Martin

you can find the x-plane model of the stemme he

http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?...&showfile=6392

and can download a trial copy of x-plane he

http://x-plane.com/demo.html

note that you need version 8 of x-plane, not 9. if there's enough
interest, i could update the stemme model to work on 9...



I own an S10 VT and would like to know details about how to get it
into the x-plane simulator. Shall be a great way of practicing
while at home.