The Swedish Model: How to build a jet fighter.

Keith Willshaw wrote:
"Douglas Eagleson" wrote in message
...
On May 27, 6:18 am, Ed Rasimus wrote:
On Mon, 26 May 2008 19:37:55 -0700 (PDT), WaltBJ

The T-38 roll-rate is listed at 720 degrees per second. The stick
throw is 6" either side of center, with the first 4.5" giving you 50%
of aileron deflection and the last 1.5" giving you the full deflection
for max rate rolls. Dash-1 restriction is against continuous full
deflection rolls with a warning that it is difficult to stop full
deflection in less than two rolls.

The FCF profile involves rolls left and right with first half-rate and
then a full-deflection in each direction. It will make your head spin
and if you are not braced, bounce your helmet off the canopy.

It has virtually NO tactical utility.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Palace Cobra"www.thunderchief.org

A spiral or corkscrew as a maneuver allows an escape. You need
elevator deflection, while entering the simple aileron roll, as a rule
to cause the high angle of attack necessary to slow the aircraft and
corkscrew breakoff to the anywhere direction.

Oh great a janitor advising a fighter pilot on air combat tactics

Sheesh

Keith



Maybe he can mop up all enemy resistance.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Douglas Eagleson wrote to Ed Rasimus:

Matching the target is advised and it is as follows.
snip
ALWAYS lossing the trailing aircraft.

Douglas, does the expression, "teaching Grandma to suck eggs" mean
anything to you?

Failure to answer directly will serve as proof that the poster with the
initials DE is an otbay. (The preceding obfuscation is for tactical
reasons that should be obvious to most posters.)

Thank you very much,
--
sjs

Dan wrote:
Keith Willshaw wrote:
"Douglas Eagleson" wrote in message
...
On May 27, 6:18 am, Ed Rasimus wrote:
On Mon, 26 May 2008 19:37:55 -0700 (PDT), WaltBJ

The T-38 roll-rate is listed at 720 degrees per second. The stick
throw is 6" either side of center, with the first 4.5" giving you 50%
of aileron deflection and the last 1.5" giving you the full deflection
for max rate rolls. Dash-1 restriction is against continuous full
deflection rolls with a warning that it is difficult to stop full
deflection in less than two rolls.

The FCF profile involves rolls left and right with first half-rate and
then a full-deflection in each direction. It will make your head spin
and if you are not braced, bounce your helmet off the canopy.

It has virtually NO tactical utility.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Palace Cobra"www.thunderchief.org

A spiral or corkscrew as a maneuver allows an escape. You need
elevator deflection, while entering the simple aileron roll, as a rule
to cause the high angle of attack necessary to slow the aircraft and
corkscrew breakoff to the anywhere direction.

Oh great a janitor advising a fighter pilot on air combat tactics

Sheesh

Keith



Maybe he can mop up all enemy resistance.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Maybe he's really thinking of a fighter "sweep"?

Dean A. Markley wrote:
Dan wrote:

Maybe he can mop up all enemy resistance.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Maybe he's really thinking of a fighter "sweep"?


Hmmmm, how long before someone pans that ?



--

Cheers

Dave Kearton

Ed Rasimus wrote:
The T-38 roll-rate is listed at 720 degrees per second. The stick
throw is 6" either side of center, with the first 4.5" giving you 50%
of aileron deflection and the last 1.5" giving you the full deflection
for max rate rolls. Dash-1 restriction is against continuous full
deflection rolls with a warning that it is difficult to stop full
deflection in less than two rolls.

The FCF profile involves rolls left and right with first half-rate and
then a full-deflection in each direction. It will make your head spin
and if you are not braced, bounce your helmet off the canopy.

It has virtually NO tactical utility.

The A-4 Skyhawk was likewise rated at 720 degrees/sec. The
tactical utility of this was to knock unwary flight students
in the head with the canopy, a sort of "welcome to the party, Pal!"
stunt practiced by the VT-22 instructors at NASKINGS on a
stud's first hop while I was there.

The routine was thus: after an hour and a half of being bored silly
on a Basic Instruments hop (the first several flight of the
Advanced Jet syllabus were instrument hops in the back seat)
your instructor would take the controls and tell you to pop the bag.
As you enjoyed the scenery, he'd circle out to the 5-mile initial
for a visual entry to the break. He'd come smoking in at the
speed of heat, 325 at least, get approval for a left break, say
over the intercom "Hey, what's that out there at three o'clock,"
then smack the stick over. Usually inertia held you steady while
the ol' Scooter rotated about you, and you got a faceful of
Plexiglas (this practice got kiboshed while I was there, after
a student suffered a mild concussion this way).

Forewarned by a fellow stud, I braced my shoulders against the
sides of the canopy (the only tactical utility of size 46 shoulders)
and rode it out unknocked.

720 degrees a second ***will*** tumble your internal gyros....
when dual you could usually bump your fellow adventurer's
helmet against the 'glas by going full throw unexpectedly.
The humor of this little stunt palled rather quickly.


Jeff

Douglas Eagleson wrote:
(actually, Ed Rasimus wrote
The FCF profile involves rolls left and right with first half-rate and
then a full-deflection in each direction. It will make your head spin
and if you are not braced, bounce your helmet off the canopy.

Dan wrote:
Nice to know.

It has virtually NO tactical utility.

Tell that to the F-86 pilots.


Please keep track of your attributions, Dan, or someone might
get the mistaken impression that the Eaglesonbot actually wrote
a lucid sentence. Three of 'em, actually.


Jeff

Jeff Crowell wrote:
Douglas Eagleson wrote:
(actually, Ed Rasimus wrote
The FCF profile involves rolls left and right with first half-rate and
then a full-deflection in each direction. It will make your head spin
and if you are not braced, bounce your helmet off the canopy.

Dan wrote:
Nice to know.

It has virtually NO tactical utility.

Tell that to the F-86 pilots.


Please keep track of your attributions, Dan, or someone might
get the mistaken impression that the Eaglesonbot actually wrote
a lucid sentence. Three of 'em, actually.


Jeff


I never made any of those statements.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

On Wed, 28 May 2008 06:15:45 -0600, "Jeff Crowell"
wrote:

Ed Rasimus wrote:
The T-38 roll-rate is listed at 720 degrees per second. The stick
throw is 6" either side of center, with the first 4.5" giving you 50%
of aileron deflection and the last 1.5" giving you the full deflection
for max rate rolls. Dash-1 restriction is against continuous full
deflection rolls with a warning that it is difficult to stop full
deflection in less than two rolls.

The FCF profile involves rolls left and right with first half-rate and
then a full-deflection in each direction. It will make your head spin
and if you are not braced, bounce your helmet off the canopy.

It has virtually NO tactical utility.

The A-4 Skyhawk was likewise rated at 720 degrees/sec. The
tactical utility of this was to knock unwary flight students
in the head with the canopy, a sort of "welcome to the party, Pal!"
stunt practiced by the VT-22 instructors at NASKINGS on a
stud's first hop while I was there.

The routine was thus: after an hour and a half of being bored silly
on a Basic Instruments hop (the first several flight of the
Advanced Jet syllabus were instrument hops in the back seat)
your instructor would take the controls and tell you to pop the bag.
As you enjoyed the scenery, he'd circle out to the 5-mile initial
for a visual entry to the break. He'd come smoking in at the
speed of heat, 325 at least, get approval for a left break, say
over the intercom "Hey, what's that out there at three o'clock,"
then smack the stick over. Usually inertia held you steady while
the ol' Scooter rotated about you, and you got a faceful of
Plexiglas (this practice got kiboshed while I was there, after
a student suffered a mild concussion this way).

Forewarned by a fellow stud, I braced my shoulders against the
sides of the canopy (the only tactical utility of size 46 shoulders)
and rode it out unknocked.

720 degrees a second ***will*** tumble your internal gyros....
when dual you could usually bump your fellow adventurer's
helmet against the 'glas by going full throw unexpectedly.
The humor of this little stunt palled rather quickly.

Nothing do I know of the ratings of the Skyhawk, having gone the route
of the USN diving community, but during my 2nd class middie cruise for
NROTC, I got a ride in one down in Corpus Christi (Beesville?). Most
of the middies got a 'dedicated' flight, just a familiarization hop
with an IP.

The liason officer hadn't done his job quite right, and there were
more middies than scheduled middie flights. I got placed with an IP
that was doing formation flight training with a real student.

Student would form up, we'd fly a little bit and (I learned a few
minutes later) the IP would give a hand signal, and yank & bank.
Helmet against canopy, boom. I think it was the third time before I
saw the hand signal, and was able to be ready for the break.

After the instruction part was over, the IP sent the student home, and
we got to fool around a bit, with the IP being very kind to a goofy
middie (that might be redundant ..., the goofy middie part, that is)

After we landed, the pilot told me how to unhook my mask, and then
told me to run my hand down the Gsuit hose and disconnect it, telling
me it might be a little hard to reach.

G suit hose came off the fitting as soon as I started to move my hand
on it. It was never got hooked up ( I was put in the plane by the
liason officer, not a plane captain.) IP expressed mild admiration
that I'd not blacked out. It had been a very near thing, on some of
the turns, but I think I hung on through the entire flight. Great
fun. When I win the Jillion dollar lottery, I'm going to have to buy
an A-4 :-)

On Tue, 27 May 2008 11:57:56 -0700, Dan wrote:

Douglas Eagleson wrote:

The FCF profile involves rolls left and right with first half-rate and
then a full-deflection in each direction. It will make your head spin
and if you are not braced, bounce your helmet off the canopy.

Nice to know.

It has virtually NO tactical utility.

Tell that to the F-86 pilots.

Try to find any, or any of the planes.

Casady

On Tue, 27 May 2008 13:18:55 GMT, Ed Rasimus
wrote:

The FCF profile involves rolls left and right with first half-rate and
then a full-deflection in each direction. It will make your head spin
and if you are not braced, bounce your helmet off the canopy.

It has virtually NO tactical utility.

I should think the opposite, since it wastes energy, and postpones
doing something useful.

Casady