The Swedish Model: How to build a jet fighter.

"Dave Kearton" wrote...
Maybe he can mop up all enemy resistance.

Maybe he's really thinking of a fighter "sweep"?

Hmmmm, how long before someone pans that ?

Pan Pan! Imminent pun failure!

"WaltBJ" wrote...
Roll rate: 720 degrees per second - what a head-bouncer! We could get
the Zipper to roll a but faster by stomping on teh rudder to yaw it -
the A-model's manual rudder took a good hard stomp, though.

When I was an A-4 instructor, I was amazed at the number of pilots who thought
full stick deflection in the A-4 gave you that 720 deg/sec rate (I suspect it
was more like 3/4 that). Many of them were even MORE amazed when I showed them
what happened when you stomp the rudder as well to get the REAL max rate...

"Douglas Eagleson" wrote:

A spiral or corkscrew as a maneuver allows an escape. You need elevator
deflection, while entering the simple aileron roll, as a rule to cause the
high angle of attack necessary to slow the aircraft and corkscrew breakoff to
the anywhere direction.

Hmmm... Sounds REMOTELY like a high-G barrel roll that can be used ONLY as a
last-ditch maneuver against a close-in gun attack... OTOH, if the bullets
aren't already flying, you haven't escaped ANYTHING -- you've just ****ed away
your energy and allowed the attacker to shoot you when you stop maneuvering
(which you WILL do, else you'll soon hit the ground out of control).

There is nothing about this maneuver, BTW, that favors a canard airplane...


High angle of attack roll rate is critical to either following the target or
breaking off.

So is timing... Again, the maneuver you describe has limited use in ONE
situation.


Matching the target is advised and it is as follows.

"Matching the target"?!? If you are doing anything like that, you ARE the
target!!! If you are NOT the target at the start, you certainly will be at the
end!


1. elevator deflect and roll positive g.
2. As 180 degree roll is passed a person needs to do a single elevator
motion. And if you get it wrong the maneuver turns into a dive.
3. SO push on the elevator to mAKE THE FORWARD CORCKSCREW POSSIBLE.

Now you make it sound like a Lomcevak(sp?) (except you forgot the rudder input),
which is NOT a useful tactical maneuver!


So it is a hard thing to get the hang of and it has negative gs.

A special modification was to aerodynamics. What can be changed. A dive as
arule is always sort of expected. SO a vertical exit from the corkscrew
appear the false exit. A fake exit is possible aerodynamically. A simple
vertical followed by a return to the corkscrew really making it impossible to
follow.

Indeed, a dive is always "expected" after a pilot ****es away all his kinetic
energy...

An attacker would not WANT to follow such a ridiculous maneuver! As pointed out
by another REAL pilot, the attacker only needs to lag up high and keep sight,
and shoot you when you emerge from the folly!


ALWAYS lossing the trailing aircraft.

More like "never" than "ALWAYS"!

"Douglas Eagleson" wrote:

A basic thing to remember a.

A simple test again who knows the answer?

What maneuver can attach to the wing of the trailing opponent and deflect the
ailerons?

The question is nonsense, so it is unanswerable.


A certain supesonic maneuver will generate a class of wake that will always
attack the trailing aircrafts ability to maintian control.

ANY time a trailing aircraft crosses the wake vortex, full control will
momentarily be overridden by the vortex! Nothing new here, and nothing
unrecoverable!


A canard aircraft will always appear to fall out of the sky, btw. It will
stall the front first. Flying into a sonic front as a rule was always to worry
the pilot because some people can intentionally form a special wake front for
you.

More utter nonsense!

JR Weiss wrote:
"Dave Kearton" wrote...
Maybe he can mop up all enemy resistance.

Maybe he's really thinking of a fighter "sweep"?
Hmmmm, how long before someone pans that ?

Pan Pan! Imminent pun failure!


It's too fine a May day for such things.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

On Fri, 30 May 2008 11:17:12 -0700, "JR Weiss"
wrote:

"Douglas Eagleson" wrote:

A spiral or corkscrew as a maneuver allows an escape. You need elevator
deflection, while entering the simple aileron roll, as a rule to cause the
high angle of attack necessary to slow the aircraft and corkscrew breakoff to
the anywhere direction.

Hmmm... Sounds REMOTELY like a high-G barrel roll that can be used ONLY as a
last-ditch maneuver against a close-in gun attack... OTOH, if the bullets
aren't already flying, you haven't escaped ANYTHING -- you've just ****ed away
your energy and allowed the attacker to shoot you when you stop maneuvering
(which you WILL do, else you'll soon hit the ground out of control).

There is nothing about this maneuver, BTW, that favors a canard airplane...

Been there, done that, in front of a MiG-17 who WAS firing from about
500 feet behind me. In an F-105D, at the western end of Phantom Ridge
where it spills out into the Red River Delta, starting the maneuver at
about 800 feet AGL. Worked as advertized, but wouldn't like to have
been there more than once in a lifetime! Wasted way too many
heartbeats.

All was as you say, Sensei.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Palace Cobra"
www.thunderchief.org

On Fri, 30 May 2008 19:43:04 GMT, Ed Rasimus
wrote:

Been there, done that, in front of a MiG-17 who WAS firing from about
500 feet behind me. In an F-105D, at the western end of Phantom Ridge
where it spills out into the Red River Delta, starting the maneuver at
about 800 feet AGL. Worked as advertized, but wouldn't like to have
been there more than once in a lifetime! Wasted way too many
heartbeats.

It is my understanding that the thud was the fastest plane in the
world at low altitude, while the 104 was faster at high altitude. Nice
if you plan to run away, although there is never enough fuel to do the
supersonic bit for long.

Casady

"Ed Rasimus" wrote...

Hmmm... Sounds REMOTELY like a high-G barrel roll that can be used ONLY as a
last-ditch maneuver against a close-in gun attack... OTOH, if the bullets
aren't already flying, you haven't escaped ANYTHING -- you've just ****ed away
your energy and allowed the attacker to shoot you when you stop maneuvering
(which you WILL do, else you'll soon hit the ground out of control).

Been there, done that, in front of a MiG-17 who WAS firing from about
500 feet behind me. In an F-105D, at the western end of Phantom Ridge
where it spills out into the Red River Delta, starting the maneuver at
about 800 feet AGL. Worked as advertized, but wouldn't like to have
been there more than once in a lifetime! Wasted way too many
heartbeats.

All was as you say, Sensei.

I'm honored!

On Fri, 30 May 2008 22:37:46 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote:

On Fri, 30 May 2008 19:43:04 GMT, Ed Rasimus
wrote:

Been there, done that, in front of a MiG-17 who WAS firing from about
500 feet behind me. In an F-105D, at the western end of Phantom Ridge
where it spills out into the Red River Delta, starting the maneuver at
about 800 feet AGL. Worked as advertized, but wouldn't like to have
been there more than once in a lifetime! Wasted way too many
heartbeats.

It is my understanding that the thud was the fastest plane in the
world at low altitude, while the 104 was faster at high altitude. Nice
if you plan to run away, although there is never enough fuel to do the
supersonic bit for long.

Casady

Your understanding was correct. It didn't really take A/B to get going
really quickly on the deck. We often came down the last fifty miles to
a target at 540 indicated with a full load of eight 750 pound bombs
and did nuclear deliveries on the range with a 600 KIAS run-in, all
without burner. You could get supersonic quite easily with a short
blast of burner and it didn't take long to get clear of anything.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Palace Cobra"
www.thunderchief.org

On May 31, 8:53 am, Ed Rasimus wrote:
On Fri, 30 May 2008 22:37:46 GMT, (Richard



Casady) wrote:
On Fri, 30 May 2008 19:43:04 GMT, Ed Rasimus
wrote:

Been there, done that, in front of a MiG-17 who WAS firing from about
500 feet behind me. In an F-105D, at the western end of Phantom Ridge
where it spills out into the Red River Delta, starting the maneuver at
about 800 feet AGL. Worked as advertized, but wouldn't like to have
been there more than once in a lifetime! Wasted way too many
heartbeats.

It is my understanding that the thud was the fastest plane in the
world at low altitude, while the 104 was faster at high altitude. Nice
if you plan to run away, although there is never enough fuel to do the
supersonic bit for long.

Casady

Your understanding was correct. It didn't really take A/B to get going
really quickly on the deck. We often came down the last fifty miles to
a target at 540 indicated with a full load of eight 750 pound bombs
and did nuclear deliveries on the range with a 600 KIAS run-in, all
without burner. You could get supersonic quite easily with a short
blast of burner and it didn't take long to get clear of anything.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Palace Cobra"www.thunderchief.org

Just imagine though what life would have been like though for the Navy
Spad pilots tasked with throwing some instant sunshine over their
shoulder.