CBS "News" strikes AGAIN

Margy,

I would be highly interested in your opinion on school choice and vouchers.

As a diehard capitalist, I can find no better solution that will both
increase teacher pay and improve education.


"Margy Natalie" wrote in message
...


"G.R. Patterson III" wrote:

Judah wrote:

That's what happens when teachers make minimum wage, and celebrities
make
$100,000 an episode...

Well, teachers haven't made that little in a LLLOOONNNGGG time! Around
here, the
going rate is around 50K for substitutes and over 70K to start for
regulars. By
comparison, starting pay for a software developer with an MS is about
50K.

According to salary.com the median pay for a teacher in New Brunswick, NJ
is $51,
927 with the 25th percentile salary at $41,143. I think this is probably
much
closer to reality. NO schools start at 70K and many top out below that.
Somerset
High School is about $2,000 lower and NYC about $2,000 higher.
Substitutes in
Fairfax County, VA get $10 an hour. Subs are almost always hired by the
hour with
no benefits. A starting teacher in Fairfax County gets $35,813 and 7% of
that comes
off the top to pay for pension (yes, we pay our own). Fairfax is
considered a "good
paying" district in a very expensive area. 40 miles west of here the pay
drops
almost $10,000 a year.
http://www.fcps.edu/DHR/salary/scalepdfs/04tchr195.pdf
shows more realistic teacher salaries.
Margy





George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually
said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

"Dude" wrote in message
...
Margy,

I would be highly interested in your opinion on school choice and
vouchers.

As a diehard capitalist, I can find no better solution that will both
increase teacher pay and improve education.

I am interested in how you think it will increase pay and improve the
schools.

First of all, who will take advantage of the voucher program? They will
have to pay more than the voucher will cover, so it will be the parent with
more disposable income, and cares what kind of education they are getting.
It is this child that will do well in school, because the correlation
between parent's involvement, and student achievement, is very high. What
will be left in the public schools? More problem cases with less
achievement. How is that improving the school, or increasing pay.

It is also interesting to note that private school pay is lower than public
school pay.

OK, so your argument is what? I would love to have the golden BB for all of
education's problems, but I don't see it here.
--
Jim in NC

I am really tired of hearing this response to vouchers and choice.

First of all, any objection based on the fact that the public schools will
be worse off has no value whatsoever. The goal is a better education for
our children, not maintaining a public school system at the expense of their
education. If the public school system is or is not a part of the best
solution does not matter to anyone except those who fear they may not be
able to compete in a free market.

Also, those who have swallowed your logic are guilty of single step
thinking. You point out a plausible outcome based on a market reaction, and
then pretend that the result will either continue to trend in that
direction, or reach a static state. Markets involving people don't work
that way.

Let's say that all the "best students" leave the public schools and go to
private schools. So what? What students are left, and what is the result?

All of these issues can easily be addressed if you drop the requirement to
save programs and interest groups, and concentrate on setting up a system
that will best serve the students and society. Maybe you just don't believe
in free markets? If you do, then tell us what you think needs to be
addressed to get your support for a voucher system. Just remember - only
the kids count!

I am not saying that vouchers are a golden BB. I am saying that free market
systems out perform master planned systems almost everytime they are tried.
Its a pretty solid argument.

In case you want them, here are some specific responses to your points -


I am interested in how you think it will increase pay and improve the
schools.

Free markets reward talent and attract capital. The better teachers will
gravitate towards the better jobs, which will be able to afford higher pay
because they are more popular with the parents and are more economically
efficient.


First of all, who will take advantage of the voucher program?

Everyone, if its really a choice. In a real voucher program - everyone
gets a voucher that they take to the school of their choice.

They will
have to pay more than the voucher will cover, so it will be the parent
with
more disposable income, and cares what kind of education they are getting.
It is this child that will do well in school, because the correlation
between parent's involvement, and student achievement, is very high.

First, as more private groups start schools, price competition will bring
tuition down. Yes, some schools will charge more, and wealthier kids will
have advantages, as they do now. However, you seem to think that poorer
parents are less involved because they are poorer? huh? Thats like saying
the wealthier pilots who buy bigger faster planes are better pilots - which
is crap. The more involved parents WILL be better consumers, and their
children will have advantages as well. What is wrong with this? They have
advantages now.

What
will be left in the public schools? More problem cases with less
achievement. How is that improving the school, or increasing pay.


This is not the part that increases pay, and once again you are worried
about the school, not the kids in it.

Assuming your prediction is accurate (if you can predict the stock market as
well, please send us your tips), we have a more homogenous group of kids
with similar problems that we can focus on in schools that will become more
capable of helping them. In fact, some schools could become known for their
ability to help these children and be sought out for that value by parents.
As for achievement, why do we care where the achievement is? What we want
is more achievement in general, whether their is more or less in any
particular type of school is not the goal. If the public schools become
known for low achievement, they will lose their students and disappear. So
what? If the students are all being educated elsewhere there is no
consequence to the students. I doubt this will be the result because their
ARE good, popular, public schools.

It is also interesting to note that private school pay is lower than
public
school pay.

An indictment of the public school system if there ever was one. However,
even if I cede your point and agree that teachers will be making less money
(which I do not believe will be the result), then so what? Once again, its
the students that count. I believe I can explain this phenomenon if you
insist.

Free markets work!

Morgans wrote:

How is that improving the school, or increasing pay.

I have no interest in improving the school. I have a lot of interest in improving
the student. Vouchers will allow people who have decent kids to get them into good
schools that they can't afford now. That gets them a better education, and they
can make the most of it. The kids that remain in the public schools won't be any
worse off than they are now.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

"Dude" wrote

Free markets work!

You don't get it. Education is not a free market. If it was, we would fire
the students that did not keep up, or were habitually tardy, or had drug
problems, or a hundred more things.

We try teach everyone the same thing. Until we change that, we are destined
to fail.

I take you are not a teacher, or have ever been one, or have been closely
involved in the classroom. I can only say again, you just don't get it.
--
Jim in NC

That's pretty weak.

I answer your questions, and you respond by questioning my experience and
understanding. And so I guess you are a teacher? So? Bring your wisdom and
spread it around.

I have taught plenty of people, plenty of things. I have tutored. I have
taught soldiers as an officer. I have taught employees as a manager. I
have coached middle school basketball. I have been a student. I pay enough
in taxes every year to pay for a teacher, or two. I am a citizen, and I
vote.

Your ad hominem remarks hold no weight whatsoever. Claiming you are correct
because you know more without displaying it is pitiful, ignorant, and closed
minded.

Pick up the pace, or FALLOUT!


"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Dude" wrote

Free markets work!

You don't get it. Education is not a free market. If it was, we would
fire
the students that did not keep up, or were habitually tardy, or had drug
problems, or a hundred more things.

We try teach everyone the same thing. Until we change that, we are
destined
to fail.

I take you are not a teacher, or have ever been one, or have been closely
involved in the classroom. I can only say again, you just don't get it.
--
Jim in NC

Will I change your mind? I know that answer.

I choose not to debate you, in this forum. There are others far better than
me to debate this issue. Let them waste their time.

I do know that until education has a chance to be run by educators, and not
elected common folk, and they have the ability to raise funds as they feel
they are needed, we are all in for a long struggle. One fix as you propose,
will not fix everything.

End of my contributions. Flame on, oh nameless wise man.
--
Jim in NC

Is there any topic on this NG that does not eventually turn into a debate on
either public education or gun control?

ummm, lessee, mmm nope!

"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message
link.net...
Is there any topic on this NG that does not eventually turn into a debate
on
either public education or gun control?

Margy Natalie wrote in :



"G.R. Patterson III" wrote:

Judah wrote:

That's what happens when teachers make minimum wage, and
celebrities make $100,000 an episode...

Well, teachers haven't made that little in a LLLOOONNNGGG time!
Around here, the going rate is around 50K for substitutes and over
70K to start for regulars. By comparison, starting pay for a software
developer with an MS is about 50K.

According to salary.com the median pay for a teacher in New Brunswick,
NJ is $51, 927 with the 25th percentile salary at $41,143. I think
this is probably much closer to reality. NO schools start at 70K and
many top out below that. Somerset High School is about $2,000 lower
and NYC about $2,000 higher. Substitutes in Fairfax County, VA get
$10 an hour. Subs are almost always hired by the hour with no
benefits. A starting teacher in Fairfax County gets $35,813 and 7% of
that comes off the top to pay for pension (yes, we pay our own).
Fairfax is considered a "good paying" district in a very expensive
area. 40 miles west of here the pay drops almost $10,000 a year.
http://www.fcps.edu/DHR/salary/scalepdfs/04tchr195.pdf shows more
realistic teacher salaries. Margy





George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's
usually said is "Hummmmm... That's interesting...."


My wife is a teacher, and while I would love for her to earn more, if you
take her salary and divide it by number of days worked, she does very
well indeed. To compare teacher salaries per year to other occupations
leaves out the summers, holidays, etc....

Even though she makes less than 40K, she still makes well over $200 per
day that she actually works....

--
ET


"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
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