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Kawa rough landing?



 
 
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  #51  
Old September 17th 19, 11:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
BobW
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 470
Default Kawa rough landing?

On 9/17/2019 10:00 AM, wrote:
...I guess you miss the main point of the posts. The point is.... if
you want to get good at any particular aviation skill you have to practice
it a lot. Talk all you want, it is no excuse [substitute? editorial
insertion] for specific experience.

Case in point, all the stall spin accidents that continue to happen. We
have discussed, analysed, surmised, engineered, and dogmatized that topic
to death. But it still is the number one killer. Why? I believe its
because very very very few pilots have taken their bird up at altitude and
practiced practiced practiced. Not incipient entry alone, but that, AND full
rotation, practice and experience again and again till recognition and
recovery becomes automatic. Off field landings are no different. Even with
all that said and tons of practice **** does happen. Maybe not for the guy
who never does more than float around at the top of a thermal venturing
only gliding distance from home field. But for the guy who is trying to
stretch and do something, if he does enough, he's gonna get bit once in
awhile. That includes Kawa, or Moffat, or any one.

Talking is great and necessary, but doing is a whole lot more essential.


Apologies if we're not quite beyond RAS' Official "Thread Drift Now OK"
thread-timing mark.

I'm gonna "second" the "practice practice practice" sentiment...as a worthy
thing to do, *regardless* of one's overall/general experience level, and
without knowing Mr. Kawa's specifics (which I assume are well beyond the Joe
SixPack Glider Pilot average).

I saw the results of a(n admittedly) botched approach/touchdown-attempt in a
Phoebus to a shortish, uphill field, soon after cutting the XC cord
myself...and quickly came to the conclusion I was glad I had the learning
experience from someone else's (non-physical-injury)
misfortune/mis-judgements. He got off light...just "the usual cracked Phoebus
wood gear-attach-bulkhead." No less importantly, he learned the requisite
lessons and was happy to share them with fellow club members. The error which
led to the dropped-in-from-"several-feet" arrival crunch ultimately was
running out of airspeed due in no small part to the optical illusion induced
by rounding out too high (becuzza the "higher than normal" distant horizon
against which the roundout height was judged...since that's what normal
landings benefit from) with insufficient energy to "wait for the ground to
arrive under the tire." To the pilot's serious credit, he figured out what
he'd done wrong before more experienced wisdom was made available to him...

Sh*t does happen, and - arguably - is more likely to on off-field landings,
but cold-blooded review of real-world accidents lead *me* to conclude (even
before I got my license) that the vast majority of crunches have direct Joe
Gliderpilot active contribution(s). So far as I'm concerned (46+ years of data
later), I've never been inclined to change that opinion.

Practice as if you may need the skills/reaction(s)...because some day you may...

YMMV,
Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

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  #52  
Old September 18th 19, 01:45 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 649
Default Kawa rough landing?

On Tuesday, September 17, 2019 at 3:55:37 PM UTC-7, BobW wrote:
On 9/17/2019 10:00 AM, wrote:
...I guess you miss the main point of the posts. The point is.... if
you want to get good at any particular aviation skill you have to practice
it a lot. Talk all you want, it is no excuse [substitute? editorial
insertion] for specific experience.

Case in point, all the stall spin accidents that continue to happen. We
have discussed, analysed, surmised, engineered, and dogmatized that topic
to death. But it still is the number one killer. Why? I believe its
because very very very few pilots have taken their bird up at altitude and
practiced practiced practiced. Not incipient entry alone, but that, AND full
rotation, practice and experience again and again till recognition and
recovery becomes automatic. Off field landings are no different. Even with
all that said and tons of practice **** does happen. Maybe not for the guy
who never does more than float around at the top of a thermal venturing
only gliding distance from home field. But for the guy who is trying to
stretch and do something, if he does enough, he's gonna get bit once in
awhile. That includes Kawa, or Moffat, or any one.

Talking is great and necessary, but doing is a whole lot more essential..


Apologies if we're not quite beyond RAS' Official "Thread Drift Now OK"
thread-timing mark.

I'm gonna "second" the "practice practice practice" sentiment...as a worthy
thing to do, *regardless* of one's overall/general experience level, and
without knowing Mr. Kawa's specifics (which I assume are well beyond the Joe
SixPack Glider Pilot average).

I saw the results of a(n admittedly) botched approach/touchdown-attempt in a
Phoebus to a shortish, uphill field, soon after cutting the XC cord
myself...and quickly came to the conclusion I was glad I had the learning
experience from someone else's (non-physical-injury)
misfortune/mis-judgements. He got off light...just "the usual cracked Phoebus
wood gear-attach-bulkhead." No less importantly, he learned the requisite
lessons and was happy to share them with fellow club members. The error which
led to the dropped-in-from-"several-feet" arrival crunch ultimately was
running out of airspeed due in no small part to the optical illusion induced
by rounding out too high (becuzza the "higher than normal" distant horizon
against which the roundout height was judged...since that's what normal
landings benefit from) with insufficient energy to "wait for the ground to
arrive under the tire." To the pilot's serious credit, he figured out what
he'd done wrong before more experienced wisdom was made available to him....

Sh*t does happen, and - arguably - is more likely to on off-field landings,
but cold-blooded review of real-world accidents lead *me* to conclude (even
before I got my license) that the vast majority of crunches have direct Joe
Gliderpilot active contribution(s). So far as I'm concerned (46+ years of data
later), I've never been inclined to change that opinion.

Practice as if you may need the skills/reaction(s)...because some day you may...

YMMV,
Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


It does absolutely no good to practice something you will never use, which is a spin recovery from low altitude. The only solution is prevention - if a particular mistake is going to kill you, you can't do it. Most low altitude spins are due to uncoordinated flight - mostly misuse of the rudder because the pilot fears the visual image he gets by a steep bank.

No amount of landout practice is going to prepare you to landing in a field with unseen obstacles, which is what apparently happened to Kawa. If you push into an area with poor landing options you should not be surprised when things turn out badly.

Tom
  #53  
Old September 18th 19, 02:59 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 49
Default Kawa rough landing?

"The only solution is prevention..." this is the same philosophy the faa has used in eliminating spin demonstration from private licensing and imop has led to a marked degredation in pilot awareness and skill., The very fact that a pilot becomes disoriented in the early stages of a spin or becomes uncomfortable when pitched into a steep bank is the very reason one needs to experience it again and again at altitude. The very act of physically experiencing the sensations both real and percieved during spin approach and entry become THE essential tool in survival.

As for outlandings, multiple experiences create a memory resevoir of knowledge in making very fast decisions and corrections which turn what could be a glider damaging landing into one that just raised the pucker factor a little bit.
Its the very fact that we rarely experience spin and rarely experience outlandings and can't handle them when they are thrust on us that is a large factor in the many fatal accidents we see today.
  #54  
Old September 18th 19, 03:16 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 49
Default Kawa rough landing?

As a corrolary to my post above let me toot my own horn and poss a few questions to you.

I have spun my ship more than 30 times, and probable done 1,000 incipent spin entries. I have practiced flying my bird on the very ragged edge of stall in every imaginable condition, weak weather, booming 10k gusty thermal condx, gusty wind condx etc. I have made a point to know every nuance of my bird so when thrust into an abnormal condition, my reactions can be automatic without needing the precious seconds to try and figure out what just happened. Can you say that about your bird? If so that great and that is what every xc glider guider needs to work toward.

In off field landings I can come over a 50 ft obstacle and have her stopped within 300ft in no wind condx, much less with a head wind. I have landed in fields, parking lots and baseball diamonds and have'nt given those landing a second thought. They were no big deal due to having spent literally thiusands of dollars on pattern tows practicing every concievable approach I could dream up of encountering. When is the last time anyone on this group has paid for about 10 pattern tows and practiced the skills needed when the time arrives? I do that every spring just to get tuned up. I'm not talking about pretty box patterns and long smooth touchdowns, but I practice very steep full spoiler/full slip approaches with the very minimum of energy in order to get into a postage stamp. Can you? If so thats great, but I dare say very few on here come anywhere near to trully knowing their ships and what they are and are not capable of.
  #55  
Old September 18th 19, 04:17 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
BG[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 32
Default Kawa rough landing?

On Tuesday, September 17, 2019 at 7:16:13 PM UTC-7, wrote:
As a corrolary to my post above let me toot my own horn and poss a few questions to you.

I have spun my ship more than 30 times, and probable done 1,000 incipent spin entries. I have practiced flying my bird on the very ragged edge of stall in every imaginable condition, weak weather, booming 10k gusty thermal condx, gusty wind condx etc. I have made a point to know every nuance of my bird so when thrust into an abnormal condition, my reactions can be automatic without needing the precious seconds to try and figure out what just happened. Can you say that about your bird? If so that great and that is what every xc glider guider needs to work toward.

In off field landings I can come over a 50 ft obstacle and have her stopped within 300ft in no wind condx, much less with a head wind. I have landed in fields, parking lots and baseball diamonds and have'nt given those landing a second thought. They were no big deal due to having spent literally thiusands of dollars on pattern tows practicing every concievable approach I could dream up of encountering. When is the last time anyone on this group has paid for about 10 pattern tows and practiced the skills needed when the time arrives? I do that every spring just to get tuned up. I'm not talking about pretty box patterns and long smooth touchdowns, but I practice very steep full spoiler/full slip approaches with the very minimum of energy in order to get into a postage stamp. Can you? If so thats great, but I dare say very few on here come anywhere near to truly knowing their ships and what they are and are not capable of.


Any time someone lands their motor glider with engine extended has to ask questions about what happen. No one would ever deliberately choose to land with a extended engine and expect the best outcome. It is like flying with full spoilers with no ability to change things, you are in uncharted territory. The right thing would have been to start the relight at a higher altitude, then it it does not work, retract the engine and fly a more controllable aircraft into the best options available. The fact the engine was still out tells a story about pilot errors and understanding.

BG
  #56  
Old September 18th 19, 04:29 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
BobW
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 470
Default Kawa rough landing?

On 9/17/2019 6:45 PM, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, September 17, 2019 at 3:55:37 PM UTC-7, BobW wrote:
On 9/17/2019 10:00 AM, wrote:
...I guess you miss the main point of the posts. The point is.... if
you want to get good at any particular aviation skill you have to
practice it a lot. Talk all you want, it is no excuse [substitute?
editorial insertion] for specific experience.

Case in point, all the stall spin accidents that continue to happen.
We have discussed, analysed, surmised, engineered, and dogmatized that
topic to death. But it still is the number one killer. Why? I believe
its because very very very few pilots have taken their bird up at
altitude and practiced practiced practiced. Not incipient entry alone,
but that, AND full rotation, practice and experience again and again
till recognition and recovery becomes automatic. Off field landings are
no different. Even with all that said and tons of practice **** does
happen. Maybe not for the guy who never does more than float around at
the top of a thermal venturing only gliding distance from home field.
But for the guy who is trying to stretch and do something, if he does
enough, he's gonna get bit once in awhile. That includes Kawa, or
Moffat, or any one.

Talking is great and necessary, but doing is a whole lot more
essential.


Apologies if we're not quite beyond RAS' Official "Thread Drift Now OK"
thread-timing mark.

I'm gonna "second" the "practice practice practice" sentiment...as a
worthy thing to do, *regardless* of one's overall/general experience
level, and without knowing Mr. Kawa's specifics (which I assume are well
beyond the Joe SixPack Glider Pilot average).

I saw the results of a(n admittedly) botched approach/touchdown-attempt
in a Phoebus to a shortish, uphill field, soon after cutting the XC cord
myself...and quickly came to the conclusion I was glad I had the
learning experience from someone else's (non-physical-injury)
misfortune/mis-judgements. He got off light...just "the usual cracked
Phoebus wood gear-attach-bulkhead." No less importantly, he learned the
requisite lessons and was happy to share them with fellow club members.
The error which led to the dropped-in-from-"several-feet" arrival crunch
ultimately was running out of airspeed due in no small part to the
optical illusion induced by rounding out too high (becuzza the "higher
than normal" distant horizon against which the roundout height was
judged...since that's what normal landings benefit from) with
insufficient energy to "wait for the ground to arrive under the tire." To
the pilot's serious credit, he figured out what he'd done wrong before
more experienced wisdom was made available to him...

Sh*t does happen, and - arguably - is more likely to on off-field
landings, but cold-blooded review of real-world accidents lead *me* to
conclude (even before I got my license) that the vast majority of
crunches have direct Joe Gliderpilot active contribution(s). So far as
I'm concerned (46+ years of data later), I've never been inclined to
change that opinion.

Practice as if you may need the skills/reaction(s)...because some day you
may...

YMMV, Bob W.


It does absolutely no good to practice something you will never use, which
is a spin recovery from low altitude. The only solution is prevention - if
a particular mistake is going to kill you, you can't do it. Most low
altitude spins are due to uncoordinated flight - mostly misuse of the
rudder because the pilot fears the visual image he gets by a steep bank.

No amount of landout practice is going to prepare you to landing in a field
with unseen obstacles, which is what apparently happened to Kawa. If you
push into an area with poor landing options you should not be surprised
when things turn out badly.

Tom


Hmmm...

I certainly have no quibble with your 2nd paragraph.

But at the risk of descending toward tautology, careful reading of the clip I
seconded doesn't suggest (to me, anyway) the poster was suggesting anyone
practice spin entries/recovery from low altitude; I inferred the poster's
intention was *full* spin practice occur at a safe altitude, so that Joe
Glider Pilot's "mental reflexes" (and by implication, physical responses) move
away from "Holy crap...!" and toward, "Just another 'typical' spin entry and
normal rotation...and I can do what I know needs to be done whenever I darn
well please, and, in a timely manner!" ('Typical' is in quotes because I'm of
the opinion that spins are sufficiently complex aerodynamic phenomena that to
complacently assume they will 'always be normal' is a level of complacency
beyond me...and, I've practiced what I preach.)

Practice - physical, where safely possible, and definitely mental (e.g. how
best to handle safely touching down on an upsloping off-field landing) - is a
good thing, IMO, for every practitioner of the soaring arts.

As always, YMMV.
Bob W.

P.S. Just for the record, one of the things for which I consider practice
entirely unhelpful and unnecessary is bleeding. Another is pattern-height
departures. And below VMC engine-outs in a light twin taking off from a short
field. Ideally, every pilot has such a list. :-)

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

  #57  
Old September 18th 19, 04:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 49
Default Kawa rough landing?

Well said Bob
  #58  
Old September 18th 19, 04:49 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,178
Default Kawa rough landing?

BG wrote on 9/17/2019 8:17 PM:
Any time someone lands their motor glider with engine extended has to ask questions about what happen. No one would ever deliberately choose to land with a extended engine and expect the best outcome. It is like flying with full spoilers with no ability to change things, you are in uncharted territory. The right thing would have been to start the relight at a higher altitude, then it it does not work, retract the engine and fly a more controllable aircraft into the best options available. The fact the engine was still out tells a story about pilot errors and understanding.



I beg to differ...The rate of sink from an extended mast depends very much on the
glider. For example, my ASH26E lands easily with the mast extended, and it's
definitely NOT like flying with full spoilers. I've tried it a couple times, and
it was such a non-event, I decided it was pointless to practice anymore.

Generally, a pilot will land with the mast extended because it will not retract,
or because he is too busy landing to retract it. Of course, it will not glide as
far with the mast extended, so I don't begin a restart until I am within a mast-up
gliding distance of a good landing place - just in case it doesn't retract after a
failed start.

Want to know more about flying a self-launching sailplane? Get the "A Guide to
Self-Launching Sailplane Operation", where all this and much more is covered.

https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)

  #59  
Old September 18th 19, 01:20 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Posts: 1,160
Default Kawa rough landing?

On Tuesday, September 17, 2019 at 8:49:45 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
BG wrote on 9/17/2019 8:17 PM:
Any time someone lands their motor glider with engine extended has to ask questions about what happen. No one would ever deliberately choose to land with a extended engine and expect the best outcome. It is like flying with full spoilers with no ability to change things, you are in uncharted territory. The right thing would have been to start the relight at a higher altitude, then it it does not work, retract the engine and fly a more controllable aircraft into the best options available. The fact the engine was still out tells a story about pilot errors and understanding.



I beg to differ...The rate of sink from an extended mast depends very much on the
glider. For example, my ASH26E lands easily with the mast extended, and it's
definitely NOT like flying with full spoilers. I've tried it a couple times, and
it was such a non-event, I decided it was pointless to practice anymore.

Generally, a pilot will land with the mast extended because it will not retract,
or because he is too busy landing to retract it. Of course, it will not glide as
far with the mast extended, so I don't begin a restart until I am within a mast-up
gliding distance of a good landing place - just in case it doesn't retract after a
failed start.

Want to know more about flying a self-launching sailplane? Get the "A Guide to
Self-Launching Sailplane Operation", where all this and much more is covered.

https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)


"...so I don't begin a restart until I am within a mast-up
gliding distance of a good landing place - just in case it doesn't retract after a
failed start. " Just to highlight the salient point
  #60  
Old September 18th 19, 02:07 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,178
Default Kawa rough landing?

Jonathan St. Cloud wrote on 9/18/2019 5:20 AM:
On Tuesday, September 17, 2019 at 8:49:45 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
BG wrote on 9/17/2019 8:17 PM:
Any time someone lands their motor glider with engine extended has to ask questions about what happen. No one would ever deliberately choose to land with a extended engine and expect the best outcome. It is like flying with full spoilers with no ability to change things, you are in uncharted territory. The right thing would have been to start the relight at a higher altitude, then it it does not work, retract the engine and fly a more controllable aircraft into the best options available. The fact the engine was still out tells a story about pilot errors and understanding.



I beg to differ...The rate of sink from an extended mast depends very much on the
glider. For example, my ASH26E lands easily with the mast extended, and it's
definitely NOT like flying with full spoilers. I've tried it a couple times, and
it was such a non-event, I decided it was pointless to practice anymore.

Generally, a pilot will land with the mast extended because it will not retract,
or because he is too busy landing to retract it. Of course, it will not glide as
far with the mast extended, so I don't begin a restart until I am within a mast-up
gliding distance of a good landing place - just in case it doesn't retract after a
failed start.

Want to know more about flying a self-launching sailplane? Get the "A Guide to
Self-Launching Sailplane Operation", where all this and much more is covered.

https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)


"...so I don't begin a restart until I am within a mast-up
gliding distance of a good landing place - just in case it doesn't retract after a
failed start. " Just to highlight the salient point


Not really the point I tried to make, which is many motorgliders do not "plummet"
or become less controllable because the mast is up, so you don't have to fear a
landing in that configuration. If you are flying a normal pattern, you just use
less spoiler, or turn base a bit earlier. The situation where the reduced mast-up
glide distance is an issue is a high restart many miles from your chosen landing
place. It's just one more factor in your arrival height calculation, along with
wind, wing loading, and bugs.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf
 




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