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FAR:Safety Pilot & High Performance/Complex?



 
 
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  #21  
Old August 8th 03, 02:38 AM
BTIZ
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is an endorsement for High Performance, without reference to certain FAR
paragraph a valid endorsement?

There are a variety of different endorsements, two of which you seem
concerned:
FAR61.31(e), Complex, defined as Retractable Gear, Flaps and Controllable
Pitch Propeller (example, Piper Arrow 200HP, Beech Sundowner 200HP,
retractable Cessna Skylane 235HP (also requires High Performance)) or a
Seaplane without the retractable gear but has controllable pitch prop and
flaps

FAR61.31(f), High Performance, Engine with MORE THAN 200HP (example, Beech
Bonanza 285HP, Fixed Gear Skylane 235HP) all of which normally have retract
gear, prop and flaps

Also there is:
FAR61.31(g), Pressurized Aircraft at High Altitudes
FAR61.31(i), Tail Wheel aircraft
FAR61.31(j), Glider, for different launch methods

BT

"FryGuy" wrote in message
1...
I have a couple of questions that are unclear to me regarding being a

snip
2) What are the requirements for complex and high performance aircraft? I
thought that an endorsement was required for planes with retractable gear
and a adjustable prop and another for planes with a greater than 200
horsepower engine. In my log book I see an endorsement line for the HP
(there isn't a FAR reference though) but not for the complex. I looked up
"complex" in the FAR and could not find anything regarding this.

3) Ok, now the combination of the two. Lets say I do need an endorsment
for the complex/HP aircraft. Can I log time as the safety pilot in this
plane if I haven't yet gotten the endorsment for complex/HP? 91.109.b.2
says the safety pilot just needs to be a private pilot with the

appropriate
category and class ratings.



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  #22  
Old August 8th 03, 08:45 AM
Roger Halstead
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On Thu, 7 Aug 2003 22:01:22 GMT, Andrew Koenig wrote:

Unless you hold an instructor or ATP certificate, you can only
log PIC time for the period during which you are the sole
manipulator of the controls.


Robert Not true... if more than one pilot is required (pilot and safety
Robert pilot) either one may be the PIC and log PIC.

Hmmm... other posters differ from you on that.

I think you're right -- you need separate endorsements for each
kind of high-performance airplane.


Robert Not true, an endorsement in a Cessna 210 is good for a Bonanza.

That's because a Cessna 210 is both kinds at once, so if you're endorsed
for a 210, you effectively have both endorsements.

On the other hand, if you're endorsed for a Cessna 177RG, I don't
think that endorsement is valid for a 182.


The 177 has less than 200 HP?

If it does then the 182 might not be valid for the 177 RG.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

  #23  
Old August 8th 03, 10:50 AM
Ron Rosenfeld
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On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 21:10:41 -0400, Ron Rosenfeld
wrote:

Rated in this context just refers to category and class (i.e. aircraft,
single-engine land).


That should be "airplane, ..."


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
  #24  
Old August 8th 03, 02:03 PM
Robert Moore
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Andrew Koenig wrote
You're certainly right when you're talking about yourself
because you have CFI and ATP certificates. But I still remember
reading somewhere, probably in AOPA Pilot, that for rest of us
mere mortals, only the sole manipulator of the controls can log
PIC.


Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!

From a Western Region FAA web site:

A private or commercial pilot may log PIC time when "acting as
pilot-in-command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is
required under the - - - - regulations under which the flight is
conducted". [61.51 (e)(1)(ii)]

Normally, a safety pilot, required by regulations, who scans for
traffic for a pilot flying under simulated instrument conditions is
not pilot-in-command and thus logs second-in-command. However, if
the two pilots agree that the safety pilot is designated pilot-in-
command, the safety pilot/pilot-in-command may log PIC since he is
the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft.
The pilot flying is "sole manipulator of the controls for which the
pilot is rated"" and may also log PIC. Therefore, two private
pilots may log PIC under these conditions. However, the safety
pilot/pilot-in-command must realize that anything that occurs
during the flight is his responsibility. Airspace violations, non-
compliance with ATC instructions, near mid air collision, and
runway incursions on the ground are all now charged to the safety
pilot. A recent article in a monthly aviation publications
discussed a flight where there was a violation and the two pilots
disagreed who was pilot-in-command.

Everyone in this thread would do well to check this web site.

http://www.awp.faa.gov/new/fsdo/art_pilot.htm


Bob Moore
  #27  
Old August 8th 03, 04:39 PM
C J Campbell
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As you have already seen, lots of people seem to remember private
interpretations or letters from the FAA ruling one way or another.

The regulations say that you have to be rated in category and class to act
as safety pilot. That means a pilot certified for airplane single engine
land can act as safety pilot in any single engine land airplane, from a
Pilatus PC-12 to a Cessna 152. The appropriate FAR says:

(b) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight
unless --

(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at
least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings
appropriate to the aircraft being flown.



There is no regulatory requirement that you be able to act as PIC in order
to log PIC under any circumstances. In fact the FARs are quite clear about
when you may log PIC:


(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A recreational, private, or
commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time
during which that person --

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the
pilot is rated;

(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an
aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type
certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is
conducted.



A strict reading of these two regulations would indicate that a private
pilot holding a certificated for single engine land airplanes may log PIC
for the time he is acting as safety pilot in a complex or high performance
airplane whether he is signed off for those airplanes or not. Others in the
FAA or anywhere else may differ in their personal opinions and may even have
written letters or articles stating their opinions, but those letters and
articles are just that: opinions. It should be remembered that many of these
people are attempting to enforce their opinion when they could not get their
ideas enacted in the regulations. They lost in committee and review, so now
they are attempting to mold public behavior through threats and
intimidation.

If the regulations do not mean what they say, then the regulations need to
be amended. Until then, the regulations have the force of law.

All of that being the case, my own personal opinion is that any pilot would
be very foolish to attempt to act as safety pilot in any airplane that he
was not fully qualified to operate. I think the regulations should be
changed. But right now the regulations are specific: you may act as safety
pilot and log PIC while doing it. There are no loopholes, gray areas, or
private interpretations here that make a convincing argument that the
regulations do not permit it.


  #28  
Old August 8th 03, 04:47 PM
Ron Natalie
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"C J Campbell" wrote in message
A strict reading of these two regulations would indicate that a private
pilot holding a certificated for single engine land airplanes may log PIC
for the time he is acting as safety pilot in a complex or high performance
airplane whether he is signed off for those airplanes or not.


No a strict reading doesn't say that. He may be a safety pilot, as that requires
only ratings. He can not log safety pilot time as PIC time as he can not legally
be PIC.



  #29  
Old August 8th 03, 06:01 PM
Bill Zaleski
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Ron is entirely correct on this. I have heard this many times during
pilot examiner school in OKC. The policy statements explained to me
from AFS-640 are very clear about this. You must be totally qualified
and legal to fly the bird by yourself in order to log PIC as a safety
pilot. (medical, category and class, flight review, and proper 61.31
endorsements) The regulations themselves are clear: In order to BE
the PIC and be the safety pilot, (and thats the only way a non-CFI,
non-manipulator can log PIC time in single pilot airplanes as a safety
pilot), you must meet ALL the prerequisites.


On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:47:33 -0400, "Ron Natalie"
wrote:


"C J Campbell" wrote in message
A strict reading of these two regulations would indicate that a private
pilot holding a certificated for single engine land airplanes may log PIC
for the time he is acting as safety pilot in a complex or high performance
airplane whether he is signed off for those airplanes or not.


No a strict reading doesn't say that. He may be a safety pilot, as that requires
only ratings. He can not log safety pilot time as PIC time as he can not legally
be PIC.



  #30  
Old August 8th 03, 06:58 PM
Robert M. Gary
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"Jim" wrote in message ...
It is my understanding (always subject to correction) that as a safety pilot
you may log PIC time because you are indeed a required crew member for the
operation. However, to log PIC time you also must be qualified to act as
PIC of that particular aircraft.


Well you could log SIC, but to log PIC but must **BE** pilot in
command, not just qualified. To log SIC you only need cat/class/type
if required.
 




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