A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

FLAPS



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old August 24th 05, 03:05 AM
skysailor
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default FLAPS

I have approximately 110 hours in sailplanes in the past 2 years and
had no prior experience. I am evaluating used gliders for purchase.The
big kahuna's in the club are pretty adamant about purchasing a first
glider without flaps. My question is: Are flaps that big a problem for
a low time pilot and why??? There many good flapped gliders for sale. I
would like some opinions concerning this.

  #2  
Old August 24th 05, 03:20 AM
Bill Daniels
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"skysailor" wrote in message
oups.com...
I have approximately 110 hours in sailplanes in the past 2 years and
had no prior experience. I am evaluating used gliders for purchase.The
big kahuna's in the club are pretty adamant about purchasing a first
glider without flaps. My question is: Are flaps that big a problem for
a low time pilot and why??? There many good flapped gliders for sale. I
would like some opinions concerning this.


I'm assuming that your question is about a glider equipped with performance
flaps AND spoilers. I'd suggest that if you can find a Lark IS28 b2 that
you can get a ride in, that might answer your question. The Lark flaps work
pretty much like they all do. In other words, no problemo.

My first flight in a flapped glider (A Diamant) was at about the same number
of hours you have and I had no problem with it. In fact, it was a blast to
fly.

Bill Daniels

  #3  
Old August 24th 05, 03:25 AM
Greg Arnold
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Bill Daniels wrote:
"skysailor" wrote in message

I have approximately 110 hours in sailplanes in the past 2 years and
had no prior experience. I am evaluating used gliders for purchase.The
big kahuna's in the club are pretty adamant about purchasing a first
glider without flaps. My question is: Are flaps that big a problem for
a low time pilot and why??? There many good flapped gliders for sale. I
would like some opinions concerning this.


I'm assuming that your question is about a glider equipped with performance
flaps AND spoilers. I'd suggest that if you can find a Lark IS28 b2 that
you can get a ride in, that might answer your question. The Lark flaps work
pretty much like they all do. In other words, no problemo.

My first flight in a flapped glider (A Diamant) was at about the same number
of hours you have and I had no problem with it. In fact, it was a blast to
fly.

Bill Daniels


My first flight in a flapped glider (LS3) was with 30 hours in gliders,
and no previous flying experience of any type. No problem.

  #4  
Old August 24th 05, 04:04 AM
Ted Wagner
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

My first glider was a 304CZ (flapped) when I had about 30 hours. No problems
at all.

I much prefer flapped gliders because of the higher performance, and shorter
landing field requirements -- 10 knots, give or take, less energy when you
land. I think that's pretty significant when flying cross-country and facing
limited landout options.

-ted/2NO

"skysailor" wrote in message
oups.com...
I have approximately 110 hours in sailplanes in the past 2 years and
had no prior experience. I am evaluating used gliders for purchase.The
big kahuna's in the club are pretty adamant about purchasing a first
glider without flaps. My question is: Are flaps that big a problem for
a low time pilot and why??? There many good flapped gliders for sale. I
would like some opinions concerning this.



  #5  
Old August 24th 05, 05:08 AM
Kilo Charlie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Ted Wagner" wrote in message
news:1124852672.6a09312da6ceee89f29b6a8aae6c53b4@t eranews...
My first glider was a 304CZ (flapped) when I had about 30 hours. No
problems at all.

I much prefer flapped gliders because of the higher performance, and
shorter landing field requirements -- 10 knots, give or take, less energy
when you land. I think that's pretty significant when flying cross-country
and facing limited landout options.

-ted/2NO


I agree with the idea of flaps not being a reason to limit your first glider
purchase. However I don't agree with the old wives tale of flapped gliders
being safer due to their much slower landing speeds and therefore shorter
stopping distances. An appropriately flown approach and touchdown with a
modern standard class glider against the same in a 15 meter ship shows that
they touch down at basically the same speed and stop in the same distance.
What is much more important but gets less press is what kind of brakes you
have and if they work well.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix


  #6  
Old August 24th 05, 05:22 AM
01-- Zero One
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"old wives tale."



Now this is going to be a fun thread to watch for a while! :-)



Larry Goddard

01 "Zero One"





"Kilo Charlie" NOSPAMkilocharlie.cox.net wrote in message
news:mpSOe.124815$E95.33431@fed1read01:

"Ted Wagner" wrote in message
news:1124852672.6a09312da6ceee89f29b6a8aae6c53b4@t eranews...
My first glider was a 304CZ (flapped) when I had about 30 hours. No
problems at all.

I much prefer flapped gliders because of the higher performance, and
shorter landing field requirements -- 10 knots, give or take, less energy
when you land. I think that's pretty significant when flying cross-country
and facing limited landout options.

-ted/2NO


I agree with the idea of flaps not being a reason to limit your first glider
purchase. However I don't agree with the old wives tale of flapped gliders
being safer due to their much slower landing speeds and therefore shorter
stopping distances. An appropriately flown approach and touchdown with a
modern standard class glider against the same in a 15 meter ship shows that
they touch down at basically the same speed and stop in the same distance.
What is much more important but gets less press is what kind of brakes you
have and if they work well.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix



  #7  
Old August 24th 05, 05:25 AM
01-- Zero One
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"old wives tale."



Now this is going to be a fun thread to watch for a while! :-)



Larry Goddard

01 "Zero One"







"Kilo Charlie" NOSPAMkilocharlie.cox.net wrote in message
news:mpSOe.124815$E95.33431@fed1read01:

"Ted Wagner" wrote in message
news:1124852672.6a09312da6ceee89f29b6a8aae6c53b4@t eranews...
My first glider was a 304CZ (flapped) when I had about 30 hours. No
problems at all.

I much prefer flapped gliders because of the higher performance, and
shorter landing field requirements -- 10 knots, give or take, less energy
when you land. I think that's pretty significant when flying cross-country
and facing limited landout options.

-ted/2NO


I agree with the idea of flaps not being a reason to limit your first glider
purchase. However I don't agree with the old wives tale of flapped gliders
being safer due to their much slower landing speeds and therefore shorter
stopping distances. An appropriately flown approach and touchdown with a
modern standard class glider against the same in a 15 meter ship shows that
they touch down at basically the same speed and stop in the same distance.
What is much more important but gets less press is what kind of brakes you
have and if they work well.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix



  #8  
Old August 24th 05, 07:09 AM
nimbusgb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Some flapped gliders benefit from using 0 or negative flap during the
initial part of the takeoff, a slightly higher pilot load.
Dumping or retracting flap in the late part of a landing can result in
a rapid loss of lift and resultant heavy or worse 'arrivals'.
Most gliders spin / stall charecteristics change depending on flap
setting.
Spin recovery procedure may involve flap setting.

Now what will another 1, 2 or 500 hours in unflapped gliders teach you
about all of that? Very little if anything but it may make your CFI
more confident in your workload handling capacity.
My suggestion, get some dual time, a couple of hours at least, in a
flapped 2 seater, ( IS28, Janus, Nimbus 3d whatever ) and then get the
instructor to give you an honest assesment of YOUR capabilities.

Some pilots can handle the load with 30 hours, some with a hundred
hours and some pilots are so far behind the aircraft they never will.
Its your personal capabilities that matter, there is no prescribed
point in a logbook that suddenly makes you capable of something.

Ian

  #9  
Old August 24th 05, 11:09 AM
JB
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Last winter I bought a LS3. I had 200 hours flight experience and it was the
first flapped glider I've ever flown.

I had no problem using flaps in the first flight. During take-off I used 0º
as flap setting, so it handled as a standard class glider.
During free flight I used all flap settings without any trouble. LS3 flaps
are very intuitive.
Landing is a bit different as the flap in landing position produces high
drag, so high approach seems to me a better way to land. If I predict a low
approach I don't use landing setting, but rather +5º setting.
Anyway, it was very simple to adapt to the LS3 flaps.

However from what I've seen from fellow glider pilots, not all flapped
gliders are as easy. I recall some guys flying ASW20 that in take-off they
use negative flap setting (to increase aileron effectiveness, otherwise a
wing drop was very common) and in the middle of the take-off roll they put
0º setting. I recall many aborted take-offs due to wing drops.

I suggest you to talk to many people that know a lot on the glider model you
intend to buy, in order to understand the glider behaviour and
characteristics.

José Barriga


"skysailor" wrote in message
oups.com...
I have approximately 110 hours in sailplanes in the past 2 years and
had no prior experience. I am evaluating used gliders for purchase.The
big kahuna's in the club are pretty adamant about purchasing a first
glider without flaps. My question is: Are flaps that big a problem for
a low time pilot and why??? There many good flapped gliders for sale. I
would like some opinions concerning this.



  #10  
Old August 24th 05, 01:39 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I pretty much agree with KC but with one small difference. Some of the
flapped ships like the '20 have true landing flap positions. These
gliders can be landed much shorter than the Standard class ships while
maintaining equivilent safety margins.
They do require a bit more technique to get the maximium benefit. Until
those skills are developed, you just put the flaps in thermal flap
position and it will land pretty much like a standard class ship.
After mastering the glider in basic mode, the skills of using the
benefits of the flaps for better landing performance can be learned.
I can get my '27 in a much smaller place than my '28.
KC is very much right on the brake.
Good luck UH

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Negative flaps for better low speed aileron control? [email protected] Soaring 41 August 25th 05 06:01 AM
f-84G Flaps question Frederico Afonso Military Aviation 0 September 8th 04 05:58 PM
757 flaps miss-aligned in cruise AnyBody43 General Aviation 1 April 2nd 04 01:01 AM
Cessna 182S flaps EDR Piloting 7 January 16th 04 03:37 AM
Flaps and V-Tails of Death Wallace Berry Soaring 59 November 26th 03 10:54 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:54 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.