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  #11  
Old September 19th 05, 11:40 PM
Jon A
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On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 21:57:39 -0700, "Aluckyguess"
wrote:

Not that I dont feel bad for all the union workers and their pensions, but I
also feel bad for all the people who lost money with enron.
I am paying a 1000 a month for medical insurance, you think we could pass a
bill to help pay for that. I dont know where all this money is goin come
from, but I guess we will worry about that later.
My 401k took quite a hit when the market crashed you think we could pass a
bill for that also.
You all new this was coming it was just a matter of when. Its time to stop
the bailouts.


You guys don't get it, do you? You're not allowed to complain about
life unless you're an airline pilot. Those poor souls really know
what it is to be down on their luck. So next time you selfishly think
about your own troubles, folks in dire need, or old people who have to
eat dog food to afford their meds, consider those who have been less
fortunate in life than you have, namely airline pilots.

And personally, I don't think Congress should bail any of those
*******s out. ****-poor management, leveraging, allowing unions to
get what they want for years, big bonus money for the upper crust,
etc., etc., etc. UAL? Jesus Christ, the employees own the company
and now they're looking for a handout?

One word - Southwest!

Ads
  #12  
Old September 20th 05, 12:07 AM
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Orval Fairbairn wrote:
A neighbor, who is UAL (ret) asked me to circulate this one.

They make some pretty good points, as the UAL people currently stand to
get reamed pretty badly.


They do? Not half as badly as a lot of much poorer people got reamed on
the Gulf Coast earlier this month.

I'll bet a good survey would show that these guys by and large are in
the upper 10-15% of net worth between real estate, investments, and the
like. Are you going to see retired UAL pilots selling their houses on
golf courses? No doubt. Are you going to see retired UAL pilots in soup
kitchens? Pretty unlikely on a $50k/year pension.

As far as I'm concerned, that's where my responsibility ends. I'm 29
and can make a very good income and would still struggle to raise a
family and put a few bucks in the bank so I have something to fall back
on when I don't collect the pension I never had and Social Security
raises the retirement age to one day short of my life expectancy. Oh,
and now we're going to buy you all prescription drugs, too. Wunderbar!
When do I get my handout?

  #13  
Old September 20th 05, 12:13 AM
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Jon A wrote:
On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 21:57:39 -0700, "Aluckyguess"
wrote:

Not that I dont feel bad for all the union workers and their pensions, but I
also feel bad for all the people who lost money with enron.
I am paying a 1000 a month for medical insurance, you think we could pass a
bill to help pay for that. I dont know where all this money is goin come
from, but I guess we will worry about that later.
My 401k took quite a hit when the market crashed you think we could pass a
bill for that also.
You all new this was coming it was just a matter of when. Its time to stop
the bailouts.


You guys don't get it, do you? You're not allowed to complain about
life unless you're an airline pilot. Those poor souls really know
what it is to be down on their luck. So next time you selfishly think
about your own troubles, folks in dire need, or old people who have to
eat dog food to afford their meds, consider those who have been less
fortunate in life than you have, namely airline pilots.

And personally, I don't think Congress should bail any of those
*******s out. ****-poor management, leveraging, allowing unions to
get what they want for years, big bonus money for the upper crust,
etc., etc., etc. UAL? Jesus Christ, the employees own the company
and now they're looking for a handout?

One word - Southwest!


I saw a news article linked from AvWeb earlier today that said that SWA
had over the past five years gone way out on a limb buying hedged fuel
contracts, such that their fuel price was equivalent to $25/bbl oil.
Same old, same old problem: the airlines are too big to fail. No
smaller business could f--- up this bad and stay out of Chapter 7...

  #14  
Old September 20th 05, 02:56 AM
Blanche
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Let's remember that the majority of those who are losing in the
UAL pension debacle are NOT the senior pilots. They are the
mechanics, the flight attendants (who NEVER joined into the
"employee owned" mantra), the gate people, baggage handlers,
the admin staff (usually not union), and so on.

  #16  
Old September 20th 05, 04:34 PM
[email protected]
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Blanche wrote:
Let's remember that the majority of those who are losing in the
UAL pension debacle are NOT the senior pilots. They are the
mechanics, the flight attendants (who NEVER joined into the
"employee owned" mantra), the gate people, baggage handlers,
the admin staff (usually not union), and so on.


It's not quite that simple. The PBGC will not guarantee over ~$50k/year
in pension payments, and it's mostly pilots who are getting payments
above that range. There is pain being distributed throughout the
organization, but the mechanics, FAs, etc are losing proportionately a
lot less than the upper-tier pilots.

Also, I read somewhere that around 1/3 of UAL's pension funds were
non-guaranteed funds (meaning UAL opted to not pay to insure them
through PBGC) which is a pretty high percentage. This was not a secret
nor were the under-fundings that had been going on for years. Frankly,
UAL's unions were so uniquely obnoxious that I can't excuse them from
culpability for all this. That place was a roaring party when times
were good but hangovers are a bitch.

-cwk.

  #17  
Old September 20th 05, 04:52 PM
Robert M. Gary
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Discount airlines ate their shorts because of bad management decisions not
related to pension costs

I'm not sure what your point is. The airline couldn't compete against
the discouts, the reason makes no difference. If management is good,
employees don't mind enjoying the benefits of that, if management is
bad you have to accept it. Remeber that the purpose of a company IS NOT
to provide employement to people. People work for a company for as long
as it benefits the company. If you don't like that, seek out a
socialist place to lay your head.


BTW: The reason UAL filed bankruptcy was to avoid having to make their
next massive payment to the pension fund. No one would argue that
without the pension/benefits program of an "old school" airline UAL
woudln't be in the situation it is in now.
-Robert

  #18  
Old September 20th 05, 05:04 PM
Robert M. Gary
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Shall we also talk about "unrealistic" management compensation packages?

Who cares? The owners of the company (elected board of directors)
decided what was necessary to pay the execs. Its not like there are
execs out there waiting to be hired. Execs that can run a large company
are like NFL quarterbacks. There aren't many of them and they demand a
high package or they'll just go somewhere else. The owners of the
company have to decide how much they are willing to pay them. What the
owners decided to pay their execs is none of the employees business.
The purpose of the company is to return value to shareholders (owners)
**NOT** to provide employement. If you don't like it, there are still
some communist countries out there for you to choose from.

-Robert

  #19  
Old September 20th 05, 07:18 PM
Aluckyguess
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"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...
Discount airlines ate their shorts because of bad management decisions
not

related to pension costs

I'm not sure what your point is. The airline couldn't compete against
the discouts, the reason makes no difference. If management is good,
employees don't mind enjoying the benefits of that, if management is
bad you have to accept it. Remeber that the purpose of a company IS NOT
to provide employement to people. People work for a company for as long
as it benefits the company. If you don't like that, seek out a
socialist place to lay your head.

People forget the only reason a company is in business is to make money. The
only reason they hire someone is so they can make money for the company. If
your not needed your gone, if they don't get rid of you eventfully you will
get rid of the company.
If the company stock is traded publicly the only real concern is that it
makes the stock holders money.

BTW: The reason UAL filed bankruptcy was to avoid having to make their
next massive payment to the pension fund. No one would argue that
without the pension/benefits program of an "old school" airline UAL
woudln't be in the situation it is in now.
-Robert



  #20  
Old September 20th 05, 07:24 PM
Robert M. Gary
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The only reason they hire someone is so they can make money for the company. If
your not needed your gone, if they don't get rid of you eventfully you will
get rid of the company.


It's such a beautiful law of nature. However, unions alter it and can
only result in a less than perfect outcome. Companies make money by
retaining (i.e. compensating) the best people and getting rid of the
dead weight. Unions are the equalizers and prevent the best employees
from getting their share so the dead weight can be carried. When they
increase the pay above what the company needs to pay to get the people
they need, they create a shortage of employment (i.e. a surplus of
applicants). So you have people who want to work for the company but
can't because there is a waiting list and the normal supply/demand of
the employment market have been broken.

-Robert

 




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