A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » General Aviation
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Help Our UAL Friends



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old September 20th 05, 08:13 PM
Orval Fairbairn
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article .com,
"Robert M. Gary" wrote:

Shall we also talk about "unrealistic" management compensation packages?


Who cares? The owners of the company (elected board of directors)
decided what was necessary to pay the execs. Its not like there are
execs out there waiting to be hired. Execs that can run a large company
are like NFL quarterbacks. There aren't many of them and they demand a
high package or they'll just go somewhere else. The owners of the
company have to decide how much they are willing to pay them. What the
owners decided to pay their execs is none of the employees business.
The purpose of the company is to return value to shareholders (owners)
**NOT** to provide employement. If you don't like it, there are still
some communist countries out there for you to choose from.

-Robert


I'm not so sure that execs are that rare -- so many of them screw up so
many times and, then go off to other companies and ruin them, too.

The boards of directors appear to have an incestuous relationship with
each other and with other companies, allowing the above phenomenon.

Case in point: TWA cancelled the NY-Frankfort run because "the load
factor showed no increase." Fact is, the load factor was 100% and could
not increase!

What company needs 17 levels of vice president, including "vice
president of wines and cheeses?"
Ads
  #22  
Old September 20th 05, 08:25 PM
Montblack
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

("Robert M. Gary" wrote)
[snip]
Shall we also talk about "unrealistic" management compensation packages?


The owners of the company have to decide how much they are willing to pay
them. What the
owners decided to pay their execs is none of the employees business.
The purpose of the company is to return value to shareholders (owners)
**NOT** to provide employement. If you don't like it, there are still
some communist countries out there for you to choose from.



You and I see a different America. Not so much Red and Blue, but rather the
Gilded Age (with an occasional Homestead Mill thrown in) vs. the stabilizing
force of a strong middle class ...1935-1985.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/carnegi...mh_horror.html

Al Checchi took over 1 Billion (with a B) dollars out of NWA when he left -
clearly his hand picked Board of Directors was on the ball with that one -
returning value to investors and all. Checchi left when NWA was in the mid
$70's. Then it slid to the $50's, $40's, then $20's, (9/11) in the $teens,
then $7, then $2 ....then zip.


Montblack
The Copper Bosses killed you Joe,
they shot you Joe" says I.
Takes more than guns to kill a man
Says Joe "I didn't die"
Says Joe "I didn't die"

  #23  
Old September 20th 05, 08:40 PM
Robert M. Gary
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I'm not so sure that execs are that rare -- so many of them screw up so
many times and, then go off to other companies and ruin them, too.


Same can be said about quarterbacks. In the end the board must decide
they are worth the money.

The boards of directors appear to have an incestuous relationship with
each other and with other companies, allowing the above phenomenon.


The board are elected by the owners. If the board is not acting in the
best interest of the owners they should be voted off (and actually can
face large civil penalties). Companies are mostly owned by mutual fund
managers and portfolio companies. Those managers are paid SOLEY on the
return the portfolio they put together returns. There is no room for
"friends". I'm not going to keep my money in a fund that isn't
performing.

-Robert

  #24  
Old September 20th 05, 08:46 PM
Robert M. Gary
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Al Checchi took over 1 Billion (with a B) dollars out of NWA when he left -
clearly his hand picked Board of Directors was on the ball with that one -


That sucks, and the owners should fire the board. But that is a private
decision between the board and the owners (actually public in this case
because of the voting), but it has nothing to do with employees.
Employees work for a company so long as they can add value. When a
company goes belly up, the environment in which the employee can add
value goes away and therefore, the employee should go away. This
natural supply/demand and laws of economics ensure the employee is most
productive (in this case, moving to a company where they can be more
productive). If I over pay my top employees that's my decision, it has
nothing to do with guarantying employment for my employees. Owners will
not want to over pay their employees (CEOs or otherwise) but sometimes
unions push them into it.

-Robert

  #25  
Old September 20th 05, 09:24 PM
sfb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Didn't Checchi get the money from the stock market and not from NWA?
Wasn't the point of the post you snipped that the market value collapsed
after Checchi left? The politicians in the People's Republic of
Minnesota would have been screaming bloody murder if had raided the
corporate coffers.

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...
Al Checchi took over 1 Billion (with a B) dollars out of NWA when he
left -
clearly his hand picked Board of Directors was on the ball with that
one -


That sucks, and the owners should fire the board. But that is a
private
decision between the board and the owners (actually public in this
case
because of the voting), but it has nothing to do with employees.
Employees work for a company so long as they can add value. When a
company goes belly up, the environment in which the employee can add
value goes away and therefore, the employee should go away. This
natural supply/demand and laws of economics ensure the employee is
most
productive (in this case, moving to a company where they can be more
productive). If I over pay my top employees that's my decision, it has
nothing to do with guarantying employment for my employees. Owners
will
not want to over pay their employees (CEOs or otherwise) but sometimes
unions push them into it.

-Robert



  #26  
Old September 20th 05, 10:20 PM
Jon A
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 20 Sep 2005 11:24:48 -0700, "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:

The only reason they hire someone is so they can make money for the company. If
your not needed your gone, if they don't get rid of you eventfully you will
get rid of the company.


It's such a beautiful law of nature. However, unions alter it and can
only result in a less than perfect outcome. Companies make money by
retaining (i.e. compensating) the best people and getting rid of the
dead weight. Unions are the equalizers and prevent the best employees
from getting their share so the dead weight can be carried. When they
increase the pay above what the company needs to pay to get the people
they need, they create a shortage of employment (i.e. a surplus of
applicants). So you have people who want to work for the company but
can't because there is a waiting list and the normal supply/demand of
the employment market have been broken.

-Robert


Spewing ignorance such as the above is the same as saying every
republican is a conservative money grubbing scumbag and every democrat
a liberal faggot. Unions are there to protect the working class from
unfair management practices, which unfortunately shows their true
colors. SWA has a union. They're making money! Why? Can't it be
done? How did we ever exist for 100 years with those damn unions?

  #27  
Old September 20th 05, 10:33 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Jon A" wrote in message
...

Unions are there to protect the working class from
unfair management practices, which unfortunately shows their true
colors.


What unfair management practices?


  #28  
Old September 20th 05, 11:32 PM
Bob Noel
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article , Jon A
wrote:

Unions are there to protect the working class


true.

What prevents unions from abusing the workers or the company?

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

  #29  
Old September 21st 05, 12:29 AM
Matt Barrow
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...
Discount airlines ate their shorts because of bad management decisions

not
related to pension costs

I'm not sure what your point is. The airline couldn't compete against
the discouts, the reason makes no difference.


The reason makes all the difference: in short, their level and quality of
service was not all that far removed from the discount carriers.

They could not compete PERIOD. Their management was trained and brought up
in the world a heavy regulation and was thus completely out of the water on
running a competitive enterprise.

Recall, too, that several discount carriers didn't survive either (People
Express, etc).


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO


  #30  
Old September 21st 05, 01:44 AM
George Patterson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Matt Barrow wrote:

They could not compete PERIOD. Their management was trained and brought up
in the world a heavy regulation and was thus completely out of the water on
running a competitive enterprise.


I think you've hit the main reason. As they grow, companies develop a "corporate
culture" caused by the fact that existing managers tend to promote people who do
things the same way they do. As time goes on, this "culture" may get out of
touch with reality. About the only thing that will change it is a hostile takeover.

I saw this in action at my former place of employ. The company started out
developing projects on a "cost-plus" basis, with money being fronted in advance.
They were put up for sale about 15 years ago and were supposed to develop
competitive practices, but they're still struggling with that. The old "who's
going to fund this" attitude continued to work with their new owner for long
enough that they never got out of it.

They have another new owner now. The CEO just got handed his walking papers.
There's still a little hope.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hey! What fun!! Let's let them kill ourselves!!! [email protected] Naval Aviation 2 December 17th 04 10:45 PM
Inspiration by friends - mutal interest and motivation to get the PPL Gary G Piloting 1 October 29th 04 09:19 PM
USAFM Friends Journal EDR Piloting 0 February 13th 04 03:19 PM
Friends hold D.C. vigil for downed pilot Otis Willie Military Aviation 0 January 19th 04 02:58 AM
OT - For my American Friends funkraum Military Aviation 1 June 30th 03 09:37 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2020 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.