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Widower stabbed Air Traffic Controller?



 
 
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  #21  
Old October 28th 05, 10:13 PM
Juan Jimenez
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Default Widower stabbed Air Traffic Controller?


"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

I did. The report indicated the controller erred. You said, "just about
everybody made mistakes, except maybe the controller." Apparently you
didn't read the report.


If you read an understood the report, you know exactly what I meant. I
won't enter your game.

Stefan


That, Stefan, is the mark of a demagogue. You obviously don't have the
slightest damn clue what you are talking about.

plonk!


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  #22  
Old October 28th 05, 10:15 PM
Juan Jimenez
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Default Widower stabbed Air Traffic Controller?


"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Thomas Borchert wrote:

Hmm. I don't quite get it either. What DO you mean?


Sigh, ok. Replace "mistake" by "is to blame" and then you might understand
what I've meant.

If somebody is given a task which is impossible to accomplish, then who is
to blame? The one who failed or the one who gave him the task?


The one who ACCEPTED the impossible task. No one forced the controller to
work under those conditions. He could have closed his station and walked
out, forcing all traffic to be either delayed or rerouted. You know that as
well as I do.



  #23  
Old October 28th 05, 10:45 PM
Stefan
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Default Widower stabbed Air Traffic Controller?

Juan Jimenez wrote:

The one who ACCEPTED the impossible task. No one forced the controller to
work under those conditions. He could have closed his station and walked
out, forcing all traffic to be either delayed or rerouted. You know that as
well as I do.


I don't know this. in fact, I know quite the opposite.

I know that the whole idea of the hierarchic structure involved was that
the controller should trust that the established and approved workflow
was reasonable.

I also know that the controller was unaware of what systems didn't work
and so was't aware that the safety mechanisms he relied on were inop.

And last I know that if he refused the work he would have risked to be
fired that very evening. Not really an option with a family.

But then, why am I replying since you've plonked me anyway.

Stefan
  #24  
Old October 28th 05, 11:35 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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Default Widower stabbed Air Traffic Controller?


"Stefan" wrote in message
...

I also know that the controller was unaware of what systems didn't work
and so was't aware that the safety mechanisms he relied on were inop.


What inoperable safety mechamisms led to this collision?


  #25  
Old October 28th 05, 11:38 PM
Juan Jimenez
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Widower stabbed Air Traffic Controller?


"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Juan Jimenez wrote:

The one who ACCEPTED the impossible task. No one forced the controller to
work under those conditions. He could have closed his station and walked
out, forcing all traffic to be either delayed or rerouted. You know that
as well as I do.


I don't know this. in fact, I know quite the opposite.

I know that the whole idea of the hierarchic structure involved was that
the controller should trust that the established and approved workflow was
reasonable.

I also know that the controller was unaware of what systems didn't work
and so was't aware that the safety mechanisms he relied on were inop.

And last I know that if he refused the work he would have risked to be
fired that very evening. Not really an option with a family.

But then, why am I replying since you've plonked me anyway.


Oh, so if the pilot doesn't preflight, and therefore doesn't know his
aircraft has broken systems, doesn't perform checks and just does the flight
so he won't lose his job and winds up killing everyone, it's the company's
fault. Hmm. That sure is an interesting bit of logic. You wouldn't be
related to this controller, a friend of his or perhaps a member of his labor
union? Nah, couldn't be. I'll plonk you anyway. I can see where this is
coming from...


  #26  
Old October 28th 05, 11:57 PM
Stefan
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Default Widower stabbed Air Traffic Controller?

Juan Jimenez wrote:

Oh, so if the pilot doesn't preflight, and therefore doesn't know his
aircraft has broken systems, doesn't perform checks and just does the flight
so he won't lose his job and winds up killing everyone, it's the company's
fault. Hmm. That sure is an interesting bit of logic. You wouldn't be


I can see the 747 captain not believing his mechanics but instead
creeping in every hole of his aircraft, checking every nut, measuring
tolerances, measuruing hydraulic pressures, X-ray the wings for cracks,
etc.etc. before every flight...

related to this controller, a friend of his or perhaps a member of his labor
union? Nah, couldn't be. I'll plonk you anyway. I can see where this is
coming from...


You've already claimed once to plonk me and haven't done so, so why
would you do it now? Do you even know how to plonk somebody?

Stefan
  #27  
Old October 29th 05, 02:52 AM
Gord Beaman
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Default Widower stabbed Air Traffic Controller?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:


"David Cartwright" wrote in message
...

I think the original poster perhaps chose the wrong words. While it can't
be denied that the controller made a mistake, this mistake was an
understandable one given the circumstances in which he found himself
(working multiple desks, with some equipment out of action, etc). It could
be said that he also made a mistake by accepting the workload when he came
on shift and had it handed to him, but I don't know enough about the
circumstances and/or the relationship between staff and management to
comment on that.


Priority one in ATC is separation. He lost separation and all the equipment
needed to maintain it seems to have been working.



He was, however, not the only one who made a mistake. One realisation that
came from this accident, for instance, is that when TCAS and an ATC person
tell you two different things, you go with TCAS - which wasn't the case in
this incident as one pilot went with the ATC command. Similarly, it seems
that the ATC management were at fault by allowing a skeleton staff to run
such a crucial operation.


But TCAS and an ATC person weren't telling him two different things at the
time he responded to the controller's instruction to descend. The TCAS RA
came later.

Indeed...and he should have immediately complied with it instead
of continuing with the instruction from the ATC operator. It was
mentioned that the Russian pilot wasn't well informed about the
operation of TCAS and wasn't aware that when he was instructed by
an RA to climb that the conflict a/c would have been instructed
to descend.
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)
  #28  
Old October 29th 05, 04:19 AM
Gord Beaman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Widower stabbed Air Traffic Controller?

Gord Beaman wrote:


It was
mentioned that the Russian pilot wasn't well informed about the
operation of TCAS and wasn't aware that when he was instructed by
an RA to climb that the conflict a/c would have been instructed
to descend.


Correction...I should have said "The Russian PIC wasn't well
informed..."

The Russian copilot wanted to comply with the RA I gathered but
apparently the PIC over-rode him...that was my read anyway...
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)
  #29  
Old October 29th 05, 09:58 AM
David Cartwright
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Default Widower stabbed Air Traffic Controller?

"Gord Beaman" wrote in message
...
Correction...I should have said "The Russian PIC wasn't well
informed..."
The Russian copilot wanted to comply with the RA I gathered but
apparently the PIC over-rode him...that was my read anyway...


From the programme I saw on Channel 5 about the incident (which was, perhaps
surprisingly, well compiled and quite balanced) there was certainly a high
level of disagreement between the PIC and his colleague over whether to obey
TCAS or ATC.

D.


  #30  
Old October 29th 05, 10:02 AM
David Cartwright
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Posts: n/a
Default Widower stabbed Air Traffic Controller?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...
If somebody is given a task which is impossible to accomplish, then who
is to blame? The one who failed or the one who gave him the task?

The controller was not given a task that was impossible to accomplish.


Very few tasks are absolutely impossible to accomplish. Whether something is
possible for a particular person with particular skills to accomplish in a
particular situation is another thing entirely. The aviation industry goes
to great pains to take note of the human factors involved in what goes on,
and this entire incident is (very sadly) an excellent example of how a
combination of (often unrelated) human factors issues can combine to cause
loss of life.

D.


 




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