Naviter Oudie 3

On Friday, August 16, 2013 1:39:23 PM UTC+2, Paul Remde wrote:
They don't trust PDA/PNA devices because they
think someone could write software to intercept and change the GPS data
before it is recorded. I don't agree with them on this, but that is I
understand their position.

You don't agree that somebody could write a software to fake GPS positions? Seriously?

It's a technical fact that this can be done, and it's fairly easy. I do it all the time while I develop XCSoar, to test the software I write.

Your personal opinion on this is provably wrong. Stuff like that cannot be decided by consensus or personal opinion - if it's technically doable, no opinion can ever make it impossible.

(With some more effort, all loggers, even sealed ones, can be spoofed, without ever touching the logger - this has been demonstrated last week by the University of Texas. Never say never.)

Yo Max,

Chill dude. Paul was simply restating the long-held position espoused by the IGC's GFAC.

A committed enough cheater could defeat any of the current security features of IGC FRs; though many of them would require some significant level of complicity by an OO.

What everyone who pushed for GPS Position Recorders was looking for was/is a level of security that makes it impossible for a "casual" modification of a log file by a pilot who needs to eliminate one or two pesky fixes that "accidentally" put him/her into prohibited airspace or to slide a couple of fixes a half kilometer in one direction or the other to take care of a missed OZ. As long as the hardware/software combination is reasonably protected from this sort of casual hacking, NACs may (or may not) choose to promote devices as GPS Position Recorders.

Erik Mann

On Friday, August 16, 2013 9:25:23 AM UTC-4, Max Kellermann wrote:
On Friday, August 16, 2013 1:39:23 PM UTC+2, Paul Remde wrote:

They don't trust PDA/PNA devices because they

think someone could write software to intercept and change the GPS data

before it is recorded. I don't agree with them on this, but that is I

understand their position.



You don't agree that somebody could write a software to fake GPS positions? Seriously?



It's a technical fact that this can be done, and it's fairly easy. I do it all the time while I develop XCSoar, to test the software I write.



Your personal opinion on this is provably wrong. Stuff like that cannot be decided by consensus or personal opinion - if it's technically doable, no opinion can ever make it impossible.



(With some more effort, all loggers, even sealed ones, can be spoofed, without ever touching the logger - this has been demonstrated last week by the University of Texas. Never say never.)

On Friday, August 16, 2013 4:12:11 PM UTC+2, Papa3 wrote:
Paul was simply restating the long-held position espoused by the IGC's GFAC.

That was not the part I replied to.

Hi P3,

Good point. It would be great if it would be approved as a GPS Position
Recorder in the USA. I'll be glad to help in any way I can.

The GPS engine in the Oudie 3 is the same very powerful GPS used in the
LXNAV Nano. So it should pass any tests with flying colors.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
______________________________

"Papa3" wrote in message
...

Hi Paul,

While the device will not be approved as an IGC Flight Recorder, it is up to
the individual NACs (the SSA for the US) to determine whether to approve
them as GPS Position Recorders, which allows the device to be used for
badges up to Gold. These devices do not need to live up to the full
specifications for an FR, though they do need to provide some level of
security that makes it impossible (or at least exceedingly painful) to
modify a log file without it being obvious to the OO.

The SSA has already approved the FlyWithCE recorders as GPS Position
Recorders. Hopefully the newer version of the Oudie will address the
concerns that prevented the earlier versions from being similarly approved.

P3

On Friday, August 16, 2013 7:39:23 AM UTC-4, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi,



Unfortunately, It is extremely unlikely that the IGC will approve the
Oudie

3 for badges and records. They don't trust PDA/PNA devices because they

think someone could write software to intercept and change the GPS data

before it is recorded. I don't agree with them on this, but that is I

understand their position.



The Oudie 3 can either run the sailplane version of SeeYou Mobile or the

Paraglider / Hang Glider version of SeeYou Mobile. I show a few screen

shots of both on my Oudie web page.

http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/seeyou.htm



I don't think Oudie or Oudie 2 units can be upgraded to Oudie 3 units.

There are many changes to the circuit boards to accommodate the pressure

sensor and different GPS. However, I don't think most glider pilots would

want to upgrade. The Oudie 3 is great for pilots that want to use it in

club or rental gliders, but customers using the Oudie 2 in their own
glider

with an external GPS or flight computer connected have no reason to
switch.

The vario in the Oudie 3 is a cool idea, but since it is not a total
energy

compensated variometer, it is not nearly as useful as the varios you
already

have in the glider. It will show lift every time you slow down and sink

every time you speed-up.



I am still added accessories to my Naviter web page. I'm also going to
add

an Oudie comparison table. I hope to have everything done later today.



Best Regards,



Paul Remde

Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

_______________________________________



"K" wrote in message

...



On Thursday, August 15, 2013 10:59:15 AM UTC-6, wrote:

, 2013 10:49:11 AM UTC-4, Richard wrote:



The Oudie 3 is available.

Richard and Paul,

Thanks for posting. A few questions; Is the GPS of a high enough level
where

it could be approved for certain claims? Second, the screen shots look a

little different than SYM version 3.5, is that because that is a

hang/para-gliding version or is it running a new version of SYM? Lastly,

will it be possible to upgrade some of the new features (Like the 12.5HR

battery) to an Oudie 2.

Thanks

PS Richard, Enjoyed talking to you and your Oudie presentation at Nephi.

Hi Max,

I guess I just disagree with the IGC on how secure loggers need to be. They
make the decisions. I respect them and everything they do. But I
respectfully disagree on whether products like the Oudie should be approved
for badges and records.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
__________________

"Max Kellermann" wrote in message
...

On Friday, August 16, 2013 1:39:23 PM UTC+2, Paul Remde wrote:
They don't trust PDA/PNA devices because they
think someone could write software to intercept and change the GPS data
before it is recorded. I don't agree with them on this, but that is I
understand their position.

You don't agree that somebody could write a software to fake GPS positions?
Seriously?

It's a technical fact that this can be done, and it's fairly easy. I do it
all the time while I develop XCSoar, to test the software I write.

Your personal opinion on this is provably wrong. Stuff like that cannot be
decided by consensus or personal opinion - if it's technically doable, no
opinion can ever make it impossible.

(With some more effort, all loggers, even sealed ones, can be spoofed,
without ever touching the logger - this has been demonstrated last week by
the University of Texas. Never say never.)

On Friday, August 16, 2013 1:58:16 PM UTC-6, Paul Remde wrote:

The GPS engine in the Oudie 3 is the same very powerful GPS used in the

LXNAV Nano. So it should pass any tests with flying colors.

Paul, Thanks. This is what I thought. It sounds like any approval issues would involve security more than anything else. I think this and the 12.5 hr battery might be worth a look at upgrading IF you can shut off the vario for sailplane use.

Hi,

Yes. You can disable the vario in the Oudie 3 for use in a sailplane.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
________________________________

"K" wrote in message
...

On Friday, August 16, 2013 1:58:16 PM UTC-6, Paul Remde wrote:

The GPS engine in the Oudie 3 is the same very powerful GPS used in the

LXNAV Nano. So it should pass any tests with flying colors.

Paul, Thanks. This is what I thought. It sounds like any approval issues
would involve security more than anything else. I think this and the 12.5 hr
battery might be worth a look at upgrading IF you can shut off the vario for
sailplane use.

On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 07:31:49 -0700, Max Kellermann wrote:

On Friday, August 16, 2013 4:12:11 PM UTC+2, Papa3 wrote:
Paul was simply restating the long-held position espoused by the IGC's
GFAC.

That was not the part I replied to.

You're absolutely correct here.

Remember the faked 500km flight by an ASK-13 (in 2011?) that caused all EW
loggers apart from the MicroRecorder to be immediately removed from the
IGC valid loggers list? AFAIK its never been established whether that was
done by writing a program that fed spoofed NMEA sentences to an actual EW
logger or whether it generated a fabricated IGC file that pretended to
have been made by an EW logger with an external GPS.

Either way it was an apparently valid, but faked, IGC log file that was
only rumbled because a successful 500km flight in an ASK-13 is, ahem,
unlikely.

I imagine that quite a few of us would like to know their identity so we
could bill them for the cost of replacing the loggers they made non-
compliant. Mine was an EW Model D.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

This Dutch site says that there is an IGC approved version of the Oudie - with a 12 hour battery and a Nano incorporated internally:

http://www.gliderpilotshop.nl/winkel...roducts_id=778

Unlike the Oudie 3, it does not seem to have a vario.

This product is not shown on the Naviter website. Has the Dutch site jumped the gun on announcing a product which is about to come out?

It is pretty expensive (990 euros) - but if you need a navigation computer and an IGC logger that could be acceptable. It would be the top end of the portable range.

Mark Burton


On Friday, 16 August 2013 12:39:23 UTC+1, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi,



Unfortunately, It is extremely unlikely that the IGC will approve the Oudie

3 for badges and records. They don't trust PDA/PNA devices because they

think someone could write software to intercept and change the GPS data

before it is recorded.

Em quinta-feira, 15 de agosto de 2013 11:49:11 UTC-3, Richard escreveu:
The Oudie 3 is available.

http://www.craggyaero.com/oudie_3.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn7owicxFXc


The Oudie 3 has an improved GPS, inculdes software, a non compensated vario and a 12 hour battery life. Software for hang gliders and paragliders or sailplanes can be loaded in the Oudie 3.

In stock

Richard
www.craggyaero.com