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#11
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Yep! They finally are. So are Stemme and DG/LS Paul If it were now they would have been able to get them finished in PU by the factory. John Galloway Schempp's are offering that now??? Mike |
#12
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Mike Borgelt wrote in message . ..
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:01:27 +0000, Robert Ehrlich wrote: Miguel Lavalle wrote: I am considering buying a second hand glider that was recently = refinished with poly paint as opposed to gel coat. What is poly paint? What are the pros and cons of poly paint compared to gel coat? Regards Miguel All gliders in my club have gel coat, but our tow plane, a Super Dimona, has a polyurethane paint. Some of the gliders have been refinished here in our workshop, and the quality of this finish is far better than the polyurethane of the Super Dimona. But this quality is probably also better than the quality of a brand new glider. A few years ago, one of our member who had learnt the skills for doing that kind of finish was able to convince Schemp-Hirth to sell to him a new Ventus 2c unfinished, arguing that he would be able to do the finish better than in the factory, and he did it. If I understand it correctly, the main difference between paint and geal coat concerning the quality of the finish is that with paint it results mainly from work done before the painting and with gel coat from work done after spreading the gel coat. Small corrections are possible with the gel coat, I remember the owner of the Ventus 2c adding some droplets of gel coat here and there during the process before sanding again. Small defects become much more obvious when the surface comes near to its final state. In a similar way, minor scratches are easy to repair on gel coat by puting droplets of gel coat and sanding. I don't know for paint. Also I have seen broken tails repaired and re-gelcoated around the break with nothing remaining visible from the break after that. Again I don't know for paint. The words "quality" and "gel coat"(as used currently by most of the German glider manufacturers) should not be used in the same article. The currently used gel coat will last a few years before cracking and causing a very expensive refinish. Polyurethane won't crack. Take a look at an old Pik20 or Std Jantar. The scandal is that the cracking of the gel coat has been known since about 1977(only a couple of years after they went to that product) and the manufacturers flat out refuse to do anything about it. Yes there are gel coat products that won't crack but as they "weren't invented here" the manufacturers don't want to know. A few people around here got Ventus 2's unfinished and had them painted here with polyurethane. Mike Borgelt What gel coat product did GROB use? The finish is poor but all the Astir's usually have no cracks. There are very few refinished Astirs. Thank Ruediger |
#13
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"ruediger" wrote in message om... Mike Borgelt wrote in message . .. On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:01:27 +0000, Robert Ehrlich wrote: Miguel Lavalle wrote: I am considering buying a second hand glider that was recently = refinished with poly paint as opposed to gel coat. What is poly paint? What are the pros and cons of poly paint compared to gel coat? Regards Miguel All gliders in my club have gel coat, but our tow plane, a Super Dimona, has a polyurethane paint. Some of the gliders have been refinished here in our workshop, and the quality of this finish is far better than the polyurethane of the Super Dimona. But this quality is probably also better than the quality of a brand new glider. A few years ago, one of our member who had learnt the skills for doing that kind of finish was able to convince Schemp-Hirth to sell to him a new Ventus 2c unfinished, arguing that he would be able to do the finish better than in the factory, and he did it. If I understand it correctly, the main difference between paint and geal coat concerning the quality of the finish is that with paint it results mainly from work done before the painting and with gel coat from work done after spreading the gel coat. Small corrections are possible with the gel coat, I remember the owner of the Ventus 2c adding some droplets of gel coat here and there during the process before sanding again. Small defects become much more obvious when the surface comes near to its final state. In a similar way, minor scratches are easy to repair on gel coat by puting droplets of gel coat and sanding. I don't know for paint. Also I have seen broken tails repaired and re-gelcoated around the break with nothing remaining visible from the break after that. Again I don't know for paint. The words "quality" and "gel coat"(as used currently by most of the German glider manufacturers) should not be used in the same article. The currently used gel coat will last a few years before cracking and causing a very expensive refinish. Polyurethane won't crack. Take a look at an old Pik20 or Std Jantar. The scandal is that the cracking of the gel coat has been known since about 1977(only a couple of years after they went to that product) and the manufacturers flat out refuse to do anything about it. Yes there are gel coat products that won't crack but as they "weren't invented here" the manufacturers don't want to know. A few people around here got Ventus 2's unfinished and had them painted here with polyurethane. Mike Borgelt What gel coat product did GROB use? The finish is poor but all the Astir's usually have no cracks. There are very few refinished Astirs. Thank Ruediger All of the Twins from Grob, Twin Astir's and Twin II's, I've seen have developed cracking on the leading edge of the wing at some point. This is due to the gel coat being applied post wing assembly. That from the molds seems robust. Frank Whiteley |
#14
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Mike Borgelt wrote:
... The words "quality" and "gel coat"(as used currently by most of the German glider manufacturers) should not be used in the same article. The currently used gel coat will last a few years before cracking and causing a very expensive refinish. Polyurethane won't crack. Take a look at an old Pik20 or Std Jantar. The scandal is that the cracking of the gel coat has been known since about 1977(only a couple of years after they went to that product) and the manufacturers flat out refuse to do anything about it. Yes there are gel coat products that won't crack but as they "weren't invented here" the manufacturers don't want to know. This is not true of all manufacturers. DG and Centrair use a very good quality of gel coat, at least on the latest gliders (Pegase 90) for Centrair. My clubs owns 2 Pegases 90, they are 8 and 9 years old and look like new. We also sold a DG 300 in order to replace it by a more recent glider, I think it was more than 10 years old and had no cracks. OTOH the policiy of the club is to buy used gliders with badly cracked gel coat and so lower price, and to use the local skill and available time to refinish them. So I have seen badly cracked LS1f's and LS4's. A few people around here got Ventus 2's unfinished and had them painted here with polyurethane. Mike Borgelt |
#15
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On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 10:24:12 +0000, Robert Ehrlich
wrote: This is not true of all manufacturers. DG and Centrair use a very good quality of gel coat, at least on the latest gliders (Pegase 90) for Centrair. My clubs owns 2 Pegases 90, they are 8 and 9 years old and look like new. We also sold a DG 300 in order to replace it by a more recent glider, I think it was more than 10 years old and had no cracks. OTOH the policiy of the club is to buy used gliders with badly cracked gel coat and so lower price, and to use the local skill and available time to refinish them. So I have seen badly cracked LS1f's and LS4's. Robert, That was my point. There are good quality gel coats available but some manufacturers refuse to use them and this has gone on for 25 years. Anybody know what product DG are currently using. I've seen that it is Vorgelat T35 in which case my friends in the glider repair/refinish business tell me you *will* have a problem. Mike Borgelt |
#16
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Our DG 1000s maintenance manual lists Lesonal UP Schwabbellack 0369066 or the MGS T35. The glider is made with the lesonal. The T35 can be used for repairs if needed. Paul "Mike Borgelt" wrote in message ... On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 10:24:12 +0000, Robert Ehrlich wrote: This is not true of all manufacturers. DG and Centrair use a very good quality of gel coat, at least on the latest gliders (Pegase 90) for Centrair. My clubs owns 2 Pegases 90, they are 8 and 9 years old and look like new. We also sold a DG 300 in order to replace it by a more recent glider, I think it was more than 10 years old and had no cracks. OTOH the policiy of the club is to buy used gliders with badly cracked gel coat and so lower price, and to use the local skill and available time to refinish them. So I have seen badly cracked LS1f's and LS4's. Robert, That was my point. There are good quality gel coats available but some manufacturers refuse to use them and this has gone on for 25 years. Anybody know what product DG are currently using. I've seen that it is Vorgelat T35 in which case my friends in the glider repair/refinish business tell me you *will* have a problem. Mike Borgelt |
#17
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With a PU finished glider, how do you deal with the spar cap shrinkage problem?
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#18
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#19
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On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:05:37 +1300, "Paul"
wrote: Our DG 1000s maintenance manual lists Lesonal UP Schwabbellack 0369066 or the MGS T35. The glider is made with the lesonal. The T35 can be used for repairs if needed. Paul Schwabbellack is the good gel coat. The current formulation does get brittle at low temperatures and I believe there have been some mechanical cracking failures after exposure. This is different cracking from the Vorgelat cracking but sadly the same amount of work to fix. Mike Borgelt |
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