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Substandard Italian workmanship renders first 787s unsafe



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 26th 10, 11:40 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.travel.air
Tom P[_3_]
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Posts: 3
Default Substandard Italian workmanship renders first 787s unsafe

Mxsmanic wrote:
JohnT writes:

Lots of people would consider that Italian technology is at least as good as
anything emanating from Chicago.


Then Boeing must have picked the wrong Italian partner. And this appears to be
an issue with workmanship, not technology or design. The tails were simply not
put together correctly, implying unqualified, careless, or lazy workers.


Factory workers make mistakes all the time. It's normal.

If anything, it says something about the Italian quality control who let
the parts out in the first place, and Boeing quality control who let the
parts into the assembly line.

If I recall correctly, this isn't the first time I've read about an Italian
company screwing things up.

There are a number of classic stereotypes concerning European cultures, and
unfortunately many of them have a strong basis in fact.

I wonder why Boeing put anything in Italy. It's not like the Italians have any
strong airlines that would be buying dozens of 787s, and if all Boeing cared
about was price, they could find cheaper suppliers in other countries.

  #2  
Old June 26th 10, 02:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.travel.air
Mxsmanic
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Posts: 9,169
Default Substandard Italian workmanship renders first 787s unsafe

Tom P writes:

Factory workers make mistakes all the time. It's normal.


The number and magnitude of mistakes they make depend a great deal on
corporate and social culture.

I recall Akio Morita describing such a problem. Sony was building Trinitrons
in both Japan and the USA. In both countries, the tubes had to meet the same
tolerances. Nevertheless, the company found that the Japanese tubes were
always far closer to perfection than the USA tubes.

Finally, management figure it out. The Japanese always tried to get things
perfect, no matter what the accepted tolerances were, whereas the Americans
didn't care whether it was perfect or not, as long as it fell within the
tolerances.

To fix this, Sony made the tolerances far tighter for the USA tubes. Their
quality then improved significantly.

It was all about culture.

If anything, it says something about the Italian quality control who let
the parts out in the first place, and Boeing quality control who let the
parts into the assembly line.


The best way to ensure quality is to build it right the first time, not to
throw out half the inventory during quality inspections.
  #3  
Old June 26th 10, 03:40 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
a[_3_]
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Posts: 562
Default The puppetmaster is displaying his skills and winning. Substandard Italian workmanship renders first 787s unsafe

On Jun 26, 9:47*am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Tom P writes:
Factory workers make mistakes all the time. It's normal.


The number and magnitude of mistakes they make depend a great deal on
corporate and social culture.

I recall Akio Morita describing such a problem. Sony was building Trinitrons
in both Japan and the USA. In both countries, the tubes had to meet the same
tolerances. Nevertheless, the company found that the Japanese tubes were
always far closer to perfection than the USA tubes.

Finally, management figure it out. The Japanese always tried to get things
perfect, no matter what the accepted tolerances were, whereas the Americans
didn't care whether it was perfect or not, as long as it fell within the
tolerances.

To fix this, Sony made the tolerances far tighter for the USA tubes. Their
quality then improved significantly.

It was all about culture.

If anything, it says something about the Italian quality control who let
the parts out in the first place, and Boeing quality control who let the
parts into the assembly line.


The best way to ensure quality is to build it right the first time, not to
throw out half the inventory during quality inspections.

Don't allow yourselves be puppets controlled by the puppetmaster.
Responses feed his ego and allow him to attempt to display
superiority.


  #4  
Old June 26th 10, 04:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.travel.air
[email protected]
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Posts: 2,892
Default Substandard Italian workmanship renders first 787s unsafe

In rec.aviation.piloting Mxsmanic wrote:
Tom P writes:

Factory workers make mistakes all the time. It's normal.


The number and magnitude of mistakes they make depend a great deal on
corporate and social culture.

I recall Akio Morita describing such a problem. Sony was building Trinitrons
in both Japan and the USA. In both countries, the tubes had to meet the same
tolerances. Nevertheless, the company found that the Japanese tubes were
always far closer to perfection than the USA tubes.

Finally, management figure it out. The Japanese always tried to get things
perfect, no matter what the accepted tolerances were, whereas the Americans
didn't care whether it was perfect or not, as long as it fell within the
tolerances.

To fix this, Sony made the tolerances far tighter for the USA tubes. Their
quality then improved significantly.


All of which was stupidity on Sony's part.

All things have a tolerance and tighter tolerances increase costs.

If Sony needed tighter tolerance they should have originally specified
tighter tolerances instead of ****ing and moaning that stuff made to
their specified tolerance wasn't "good enough".

It was all about culture.


Wrong, it is all about getting the specifications to be what is really
needed in the first place.

That is basic engineering.


--
Jim Pennino

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  #5  
Old June 26th 10, 02:28 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.travel.air
Bert Hyman
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Posts: 8
Default Substandard Italian workmanship renders first 787s unsafe

In news wrote:

JohnT writes:

Lots of people would consider that Italian technology is at least as
good as anything emanating from Chicago.


Then Boeing must have picked the wrong Italian partner.


Must have been Fiat.

--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN
  #6  
Old June 26th 10, 04:16 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.travel.air
[email protected]
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Posts: 2,892
Default Substandard Italian workmanship renders first 787s unsafe

In rec.aviation.piloting Mxsmanic wrote:
JohnT writes:

Lots of people would consider that Italian technology is at least as good as
anything emanating from Chicago.


Then Boeing must have picked the wrong Italian partner. And this appears to be
an issue with workmanship, not technology or design. The tails were simply not
put together correctly, implying unqualified, careless, or lazy workers.


And just how many manufacturing programs have you been involved with that
you are able to make such a determination?

Let me guess, you play Microsoft Manufacturing Simulator.

In my experience with real world production, if some of the subassemblies
are "wrong" it is usually a QA and inspection problem with the builder and
if they are almost or all "wrong" it is usually a problem with the
documentation package sent to the builder.

You can't say what the defect percentage is nor do you have any insight
what so ever in the manufacturing process.

Based on a total lack of information, your conclusion is Italian workers
are unqualified, careless, or lazy.

Yeah, right.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.
  #7  
Old June 25th 10, 11:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.travel.air
Flaps_50!
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Posts: 117
Default Substandard Italian workmanship renders first 787s unsafe

On Jun 26, 9:10*am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Boeing has discovered that the Italian firm to which it subcontracted
construction of tail assemblies isn't doing the work correctly, putting the 23
aircraft it has already built at risk:

http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/p...halts-787-test...

No surprise here. When you allow Third World companies to built vital parts to
your airplane, you should take for granted that there will be potentially
dangerous defects. That's the consequence of trying to be politically correct.


Where in the article does it say the Italian parts are substandard? As
I read it it's an assembly problem (shimming and bolt torque) which
takes place in the US...

Cheers
  #8  
Old June 25th 10, 11:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.travel.air
Mxsmanic
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Posts: 9,169
Default Substandard Italian workmanship renders first 787s unsafe

Flaps_50! writes:

Where in the article does it say the Italian parts are substandard? As
I read it it's an assembly problem (shimming and bolt torque) which
takes place in the US...


Yes. The defects are in the assembly, not the hardware itself (as I understood
the article). Thus, unqualified or careless workers, inadequate QC, etc.,
which, unfortunately, is exactly what I'd expect from an average Italian
supplier.
  #9  
Old June 25th 10, 11:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.travel.air
a[_3_]
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Posts: 562
Default Substandard Italian workmanship renders first 787s unsafe

On Jun 25, 6:21*pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Flaps_50! writes:
Where in the article does it say the Italian parts are substandard? As
I read it it's an assembly problem (shimming and bolt torque) which
takes place in the US...


Yes. The defects are in the assembly, not the hardware itself (as I understood
the article). Thus, unqualified or careless workers, inadequate QC, etc.,
which, unfortunately, is exactly what I'd expect from an average Italian
supplier.


The article says nothing about defects in the unit assembled in Italy.
It does say the issue is associated with how it had been attached,
torqued, and shimmed to the correct position when it had been attached
to the 'next assembly up'.
  #10  
Old June 26th 10, 01:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.travel.air
Mxsmanic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,169
Default Substandard Italian workmanship renders first 787s unsafe

a writes:

The article says nothing about defects in the unit assembled in Italy.
It does say the issue is associated with how it had been attached,
torqued, and shimmed to the correct position when it had been attached
to the 'next assembly up'.


Incorrect assembly is a defect.
 




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