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Water-cooled Examples



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 3rd 09, 10:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
Veeduber[_2_]
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Posts: 42
Default Water-cooled Examples

To All,

In another thread regarding the growing shortage of air-cooled
automobile engine that can be easily converted to serve as a power-
plant for a home-built, I mentioned liquid-cooled engines as an
alternative. This lead to an interesting exchange about various
options but it also made clear that many home-builders are not
familiar with industrial engines.

If you will go to the URL below...

http://www.gm.com/experience/technol...al_engines.jsp

....you will see the industrial engines offered by General Motors.
Examine the two smallest engines. These are four-inline, water-cooled
engines which may be had with a variety of cams making them suitable
for a number of applications from pumping water (typically the cam
most suitable for fitting a propeller), to powering a light truck (mid-
range, multi-speed cam) or marine applications (usually using a cam
that produces the highest rpm).

Every automobile manufacturer of any size has an industrial engine
division. This SHOULD be true for TATA ( in India) as well as China.

Ideally, we want the engine that weighs the least and can produce at
least 40hp @ 2800 rpm. To keep things simple, if the engine uses fuel
injection, we would discard that in favor of an up-draft carburetor.
If the ignition is part of a combustion controller computer system, it
would be replaced with a simple electronic ignition system, allowing
the engine to be manually started. These changes would reduce the
engine's weight and may reduce its cost, depending upon how it is
acquired.

When examining the graphs showing torque, rpm and horsepower, keep in
mind that we are driving a PROPELLER with the further assumptions that
it is made of wood. Unlike a metal prop, which may be a hollow
forging (!) that optimizes L/D, a home-made prop is typically made of
wood, which means it must have a thicker cross-section to achieve the
required strength. Not only is the wooden prop thicker, it will not
be as accurate, increasing its drag. Since aerodynamic drag increases
by the SQUARE of velocity, we want to use the lowest possible rpm.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NOTE: It's possible that the economic difficulties that presently
plague American auto makers may be to our advantage in that they are
liable to produce smaller vehicles powered by smaller, more fuel-
efficient engines that MAY be more suitable for conversion for use in
light aircraft.

-R.S.Hoover
  #2  
Old June 4th 09, 03:05 AM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
[email protected]
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Posts: 7
Default Water-cooled Examples

I have to agree with this. Water cooled industrial or auto engines
are becoming the best option.

Our local building community has modified Rover aluminum V8's (Buick
215 for us old guys) and a number of Japanese engines. The success
has been ok but these are expensive conversions with trick quality FI
and Ignition systems supplied often by SDS. They are local as well
and easily accessable to the homebuilders here. Thier website is an
excellent source of conversion info, again high end but cooling and
conversion issues are well researched with lots of tech articles.

http://sdsefi.com/ the aircraft page link is at the bottom.

I might differ with Bob a bit as I am leaning to affordable PSRU
engines so I can get a powerplant from the auto wreckers. Maybe even
use the auto systems for FI and computerized engine management. I
want to get all my parts from the local auto store. I am drawn to the
earlier systems like the first really dependable packages like the
bosch systems in my parade of Volvo 240's or the outstanding record of
the 90's Toyota cars and pickups.

Direct drive would appeal to me more if oe could invert the engine.
Wittman did it with an aluminum Olds v8 I think. How feasable is an
inverted engine and the resulting dry sump problems?
  #3  
Old June 4th 09, 04:05 AM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
[email protected]
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Default Water-cooled Examples

For fun I found Kubota specs for a small diesel.

http://www.engine.kubota.ne.jp/engli...4_v1505_36.pdf

  #4  
Old June 4th 09, 05:19 AM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
Veeduber[_2_]
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Posts: 42
Default Water-cooled Examples

On Jun 3, 7:05*pm, wrote:

I might differ with Bob a bit as I am leaning to affordable PSRU
engines so *I can get a powerplant from the auto wreckers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I've nothing against a PSRU. I suspect any differences we may have
would be in the definition of 'affordable' :-)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*How feasable is an
inverted engine and the resulting dry sump problems?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Inverting an engine is less difficult than most believe. The main
difficulties are in the sizing of the scavenger pumps, especially when
dealing with an engine having two banks. But flipping an engine and
dry-sumping is far removed from the intended topic.

-R.S.Hoover

  #5  
Old June 4th 09, 06:54 AM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
Philippe[_2_]
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Posts: 37
Default Water-cooled Examples

Veeduber a écrit:


In another thread regarding the growing shortage of air-cooled
automobile engine that can be easily converted to serve as a power-
plant for a home-built, I mentioned liquid-cooled engines as an
alternative. This lead to an interesting exchange about various
options but it also made clear that many home-builders are not
familiar with industrial engines.


In France:
http://gazaile2.free.fr/diesel.php

The engines are heavy automotive diesel. But here, the taxes are low
on diesel fuel and more than 50% cars burn diesel.

The #1 use a isuzu diesel on original airframe
the #2 use a Peugeot diesel on "MCR01 style" fuselage.

The airframe is built very light , the fuel burn is as low as 9l/h
(2.4g/h) for 110kts of speed for the Gazaile 2.

About the engine: more simple than Thielert but in fact, the homebuilder
need to accept electronics for newer engines. The Engine control unit
must be simpler than automotive ones.
The engine limitation is torque, no rpm... From a 90HP automotive, we
may expect 130 HP with more rpm and PSRU.

I own a 90HP Toyota diesel in a Corolla, I may achieve 65mpg in best
day and 50mpg in common days. This engine weight is around 120kg, not
too bad...

The other side is the "commercial" life for engines. If flat four VW
was built during half a century, actual engine commercial life never
exceeded 20 years.

--
« Si tous les poètes voulaient se donner la main, ils toucheraient enfin
des doigts d'auteur! »
Philippe Vessaire Ò¿Ó¬

  #6  
Old June 4th 09, 05:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
jan olieslagers[_2_]
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Posts: 232
Default Water-cooled Examples

schreef:
For fun I found Kubota specs for a small diesel.

http://www.engine.kubota.ne.jp/engli...4_v1505_36.pdf


Thanks for the research! But weighing 110 kg DRY for just 39HP it
doesn't seem very useable, does it?
  #7  
Old June 4th 09, 06:18 PM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
[email protected]
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Posts: 7
Default Water-cooled Examples

That is the problem with most diesels and affordable building in the
performance range that suits me. To date this is the lightest I can
find. At least no PSRU would be necessary.

One problem with affordable designs and materials is added weight.
Fir for spruce, heavier wall mild steel tubing for 4130, heavier
engines, PSRUs, etcetera. This steady stacking of weight is a serious
issue with building cheap. My definition of affordable includes
buying materials locally. If shipping, particularly from the US, or
purchasing from Aircraft Suppliers are involved affordable is a lost
goal.

The most affordable option in North America remains buying a flying
airplane like a Fly Baby after an educated inspection. In my case I
bought a Fly Baby in Oregon and brought it back to Canada. If I price
out 8:00x4 Cub wheels and tires, tailwheel, strong A65, McCauley
metal prop, fuel tank, covering supplies, Sitka spruce, ..., my plane
cost total landed in my garage was cheaper than a set of A65
cylinders.


For fun I found Kubota specs for a small diesel.


http://www.engine.kubota.ne.jp/engli...4_v1505_36.pdf


Thanks for the research! But weighing 110 kg DRY for just 39HP it
doesn't seem very useable, does it?


 




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