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The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....



 
 
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  #71  
Old December 13th 09, 10:03 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Strobe
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....

On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 02:46:28 -0800 (PST), Jack Linthicum
wrote:

On Dec 11, 8:21Â*pm, Strobe wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 23:42:41 -0800 (PST), frank
wrote:



On Dec 10, 11:58Â*pm, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" atlas-
wrote:
In article
93ee764a-0400-499b-b519-37e47ef04416@v2
5g2000yqk.googlegroups.com,


Â*Richard wrote:
On Dec 9, 11:23Â*pm, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" atlas-
wrote:
In article
3f72b032-2be2-4377-a180-01d7a81404fe@d2
1g2000yqn.googlegroups.com,


Â*Mike wrote:
StrategyPage.com
December 2, 2009


The Melting Deck Plates Muddle


by James Dunnigan


Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy discovered that the heat from the
MV-22's gas turbine engines, which blow their exhaust right on to the
deck of the LHD while waiting to take off, caused high enough
temperatures to the steel under the deck plates, to possibly warp the
understructure. This was already a known potential problem with the
new F-35B vertical takeoff jet fighter.
So now the Navy has two hot new aircraft that require an innovative
solution to the melting deck problem. The Navy also discovered that
the exhaust heat problem varied in intensity between different classes
of helicopter carriers (each with a different deck design.)


The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive
modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks,
both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs.
This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as
the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long
development of either aircraft.


Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts
of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you
compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can
easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more
recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a
real problem.


Use what NASA uses for the shuttle?
Wouldn't cost that much at all


Yeah except for not walking, parking, raining, hailing or dropping a
wrench on the coating it would be great.


Actually I was thinking of what they do
at the launch pad during launch, not the
tiles on the shuttle


Ever see photos of the pad, there is a large water tower near it. I
think 3 seconds before launch, when engines start up, there is a water
infusion into the bucket that thrust goes into. Think multiple streams
of water. Sucker lights up, hits the water, massive steam and thrust
go out the channels away from the launch pad. That's the big clouds
that occur. Makes pad much more reusable.


I think Shuttle was first system to use that, could be wrong. Makes
entire complex much more reusable.


If you can get some old Shuttle launch footage, that's one of the
standard shots from NASA and main engine start.


Awesome. Lots of plumbing though.


Imagine being the pilot taking off through all that steam.
Or landing, when visibility suddenly drops to zero as you come over the pad.

Now imagine again, this time remembering that there's solid lumps of ship
only a few yards from your rotors. . .

A strong refractory coating seems much more attractive.


With a thirty knot wind over the bow?


Imagine that 30 kt wind has to work against both the rotor down draft and the
turbine exhaust (how many knots?) to remove the steam.
Imagine betting your life that the headwind wins all the time.
  #72  
Old December 13th 09, 10:14 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
BlackBeard
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 79
Default The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....

On Dec 13, 1:03*am, Strobe wrote:
On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 02:46:28 -0800 (PST), Jack Linthicum





wrote:
On Dec 11, 8:21*pm, Strobe wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 23:42:41 -0800 (PST), frank
wrote:


On Dec 10, 11:58*pm, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" atlas-
wrote:
In article
93ee764a-0400-499b-b519-37e47ef04416@v2
5g2000yqk.googlegroups.com,


*Richard wrote:
On Dec 9, 11:23*pm, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" atlas-
wrote:
In article
3f72b032-2be2-4377-a180-01d7a81404fe@d2
1g2000yqn.googlegroups.com,


*Mike wrote:
StrategyPage.com
December 2, 2009


The Melting Deck Plates Muddle


by James Dunnigan


Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy discovered that the heat from the
MV-22's gas turbine engines, which blow their exhaust right on to the
deck of the LHD while waiting to take off, caused high enough
temperatures to the steel under the deck plates, to possibly warp the
understructure. This was already a known potential problem with the
new F-35B vertical takeoff jet fighter.
So now the Navy has two hot new aircraft that require an innovative
solution to the melting deck problem. The Navy also discovered that
the exhaust heat problem varied in intensity between different classes
of helicopter carriers (each with a different deck design.)


The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive
modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks,
both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs.
This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as
the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long
development of either aircraft.


Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts
of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you
compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can
easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more
recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a
real problem.


Use what NASA uses for the shuttle?
Wouldn't cost that much at all


Yeah except for not walking, parking, raining, hailing or dropping a
wrench on the coating it would be great.


Actually I was thinking of what they do
at the launch pad during launch, not the
tiles on the shuttle


Ever see photos of the pad, there is a large water tower near it. I
think 3 seconds before launch, when engines start up, there is a water
infusion into the bucket that thrust goes into. Think multiple streams
of water. Sucker lights up, hits the water, massive steam and thrust
go out the channels away from the launch pad. That's the big clouds
that occur. Makes pad much more reusable.


I think Shuttle was first system to use that, could be wrong. Makes
entire complex much more reusable.


If you can get some old Shuttle launch footage, that's one of the
standard shots from NASA and main engine start.


Awesome. Lots of plumbing though.


Imagine being the pilot taking off through all that steam.
Or landing, when visibility suddenly drops to zero as you come over the pad.


Now imagine again, this time remembering that there's solid lumps of ship
only a few yards from your rotors. . .


A strong refractory coating seems much more attractive.


With a thirty knot wind over the bow?


Imagine that 30 kt wind has to work against both the rotor down draft and the
turbine exhaust (how many knots?) to remove the steam.
Imagine betting your life that the headwind wins all the time.


Carriers use 30kt into the wind for launching (although most modern
Naval AC can launch in harbor.) An LHP, launching or especially
landing VTOL AC is safer dealing with less wind across the deck.
Unless of course they are performing a rolling take-off.

BB
  #73  
Old December 13th 09, 04:24 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Ken S. Tucker
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 442
Default The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....

On Dec 12, 12:31 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:
On Dec 12, 12:26 am, "dott.Piergiorgio"

wrote:
Ken S. Tucker ha scritto:


Patents are those legal things that get tossed into archives,
to be forgotten about, but your request is interesting, do they
put that online |?| I'll check.


with goggle patents and uspto.gov all whose suffice is that you post the
patent number
Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.


Ok, found it, Canadian Patent # 1 241 883 issued Sep 13 1988.
Ken


Found some data online,
http://brevets-patents.ic.gc.ca/opic...ch#View_Images
Ken
  #74  
Old December 13th 09, 07:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Typhoon502
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 62
Default The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....

On Dec 11, 5:06*pm, Jack Linthicum
wrote:
ONR is looking for thermal management technologies that can keep the
deck surface temperature below 300ºF when exposed to MV-22 exhaust
plumes for 90 minutes before takeoff, and F-35B exhaust plumes for 2
minutes when landing. And cooling the deck is not enough - any
solution has to be compatible with the deck's non-skid coating. It
also has to be affordable and capable of being installed below deck or
retrofitted above deck. Tall order.


I've got this conversation at ONR in my head...

"We've got a problem. Those Ospreys are ****ing up the decks."

"Define '****ing up.'"

"Well, here's the problem. [snip detailed description and analysis]"

"Are you serious? They never accounted for that?"

"No sir."

"Well...what do we have that can take that kind of heat?"

"Nothing that I know of, sir."

"Well...damn...look, SOMEONE's gotta have something. Put out an RFI
and keep your fingers crossed."
  #75  
Old December 13th 09, 10:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Dan[_12_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 451
Default The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Dec 12, 12:31 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:
On Dec 12, 12:26 am, "dott.Piergiorgio"

wrote:
Ken S. Tucker ha scritto:
Patents are those legal things that get tossed into archives,
to be forgotten about, but your request is interesting, do they
put that online |?| I'll check.
with goggle patents and uspto.gov all whose suffice is that you post the
patent number
Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.

Ok, found it, Canadian Patent # 1 241 883 issued Sep 13 1988.
Ken


Found some data online,
http://brevets-patents.ic.gc.ca/opic...ch#View_Images
Ken


OK, I grant you were honest this time.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
  #76  
Old December 14th 09, 03:22 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Ken S. Tucker
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 442
Default The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....

On Dec 13, 1:15 pm, Dan wrote:
Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Dec 12, 12:31 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:
On Dec 12, 12:26 am, "dott.Piergiorgio"


wrote:
Ken S. Tucker ha scritto:
Patents are those legal things that get tossed into archives,
to be forgotten about, but your request is interesting, do they
put that online |?| I'll check.
with goggle patents and uspto.gov all whose suffice is that you post the
patent number
Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.
Ok, found it, Canadian Patent # 1 241 883 issued Sep 13 1988.
Ken


Found some data online,
http://brevets-patents.ic.gc.ca/opic...t/1241883/summ...
Ken


OK, I grant you were honest this time.
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


How would you know? My real name could be Danelda Dip****z,
masquerading as that very handsome, captain of industry, the
one and only Ken Tucker who women flock to.

Actually it was fun to find the patent online, but it's hardly sumfink
to brag about, just an honest interest in practical thermodynamics.
Ken
  #77  
Old December 14th 09, 01:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
PaPa Peng
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9
Default The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....


The Melting Deck Plates Muddle



The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive
modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks,
both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs.
This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as
the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long
development of either aircraft.


What about clamshell deflectors for the hot exhausts?

During warmup before takeoff the clamshell halves deflect the hot
exhaust forward and rearward, away from the deck. At the moment of
takeoff the clamshell doors close partally to reduce the deflection
angle (which will provide some vertical thrust and side thrust) or
move out of the way altogether to allow the hot exhaust to shoot the
deck.

For landing, as the aircraft comes close to deck the clamshells are
partially closed, again to deflect the hot exhausts from blowing
directly on the deck. How this will affect controllability will need
to be tested for practicality. On landing the clamshell doors will be
in full deflection mode (Fwd and Rearwd) to keep the hot gasses awway
from the deck.


  #78  
Old December 14th 09, 04:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Typhoon502
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 62
Default The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....

On Dec 14, 7:02*am, PaPa Peng wrote:
The Melting Deck Plates Muddle


The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive
modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks,
both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs.
This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as
the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long
development of either aircraft.


What about clamshell deflectors for the hot exhausts?

During warmup before takeoff the clamshell halves deflect the hot
exhaust forward and rearward, away from the deck. *At the moment of
takeoff the clamshell doors close partally to reduce the deflection
angle (which will provide some vertical thrust and side thrust) or
move out of the way altogether to allow the hot exhaust to shoot the
deck.

For landing, *as the aircraft comes close to deck the clamshells are
partially *closed, again to deflect the hot exhausts from blowing
directly on the deck. *How this will affect controllability will need
to be tested for practicality. *On landing the clamshell doors will be
in full deflection mode (Fwd and Rearwd) to keep the hot gasses awway
from the deck.


That's what I've been thinking, at least for the Ospreys. The solution
ought to be on the airframe, not on the deck, because no matter where
the bird goes, the hot exhaust will be an issue, and not every landing
platform will be treated in the same way.
  #79  
Old December 14th 09, 05:07 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Jack Linthicum
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 301
Default The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....

On Dec 14, 10:44*am, Typhoon502 wrote:
On Dec 14, 7:02*am, PaPa Peng wrote:



The Melting Deck Plates Muddle


The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive
modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks,
both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs.
This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as
the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long
development of either aircraft.


What about clamshell deflectors for the hot exhausts?


During warmup before takeoff the clamshell halves deflect the hot
exhaust forward and rearward, away from the deck. *At the moment of
takeoff the clamshell doors close partally to reduce the deflection
angle (which will provide some vertical thrust and side thrust) or
move out of the way altogether to allow the hot exhaust to shoot the
deck.


For landing, *as the aircraft comes close to deck the clamshells are
partially *closed, again to deflect the hot exhausts from blowing
directly on the deck. *How this will affect controllability will need
to be tested for practicality. *On landing the clamshell doors will be
in full deflection mode (Fwd and Rearwd) to keep the hot gasses awway
from the deck.


That's what I've been thinking, at least for the Ospreys. The solution
ought to be on the airframe, not on the deck, because no matter where
the bird goes, the hot exhaust will be an issue, and not every landing
platform will be treated in the same way.


Weight on the aircraft is one of the Osprey's problems. Better to make
a deck covering that does the job without burdening the aircraft.
  #80  
Old December 14th 09, 07:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
D Wright
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12
Default The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....

Jack Linthicum wrote:
On Dec 14, 10:44 am, Typhoon502 wrote:
On Dec 14, 7:02 am, PaPa Peng wrote:



The Melting Deck Plates Muddle
The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive
modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks,
both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs.
This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as
the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long
development of either aircraft.
What about clamshell deflectors for the hot exhausts?
During warmup before takeoff the clamshell halves deflect the hot
exhaust forward and rearward, away from the deck. At the moment of
takeoff the clamshell doors close partally to reduce the deflection
angle (which will provide some vertical thrust and side thrust) or
move out of the way altogether to allow the hot exhaust to shoot the
deck.
For landing, as the aircraft comes close to deck the clamshells are
partially closed, again to deflect the hot exhausts from blowing
directly on the deck. How this will affect controllability will need
to be tested for practicality. On landing the clamshell doors will be
in full deflection mode (Fwd and Rearwd) to keep the hot gasses awway
from the deck.

That's what I've been thinking, at least for the Ospreys. The solution
ought to be on the airframe, not on the deck, because no matter where
the bird goes, the hot exhaust will be an issue, and not every landing
platform will be treated in the same way.


Weight on the aircraft is one of the Osprey's problems. Better to make
a deck covering that does the job without burdening the aircraft.


Yes. Anything added to the aircraft subtracts payload. It also adds
another failure mode.
 




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