In-Flight Engine Failure

On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 08:41:44 -0500, "O. Sami Saydjari"
wrote:

Well, it happended. I have owned the plane (Piper Turbo Arrow III) for
3 months and the engine failed during climb out on Tuesday. Altitude
was 4400 feet. Luckily, the engine did not entirely quit and I made it
to an airport within 10 miles.

Glad to hear you made it safely. You are based in Wisconsin, right?
Where was the failure? Northern Wisconsin can be an unforgiving area
for an off-airport landing (miles and miles of dense forests).

(2) Now I am faced with having to have the engine overhauled. Growl!
The engine has brand new cylinders on it (well, they have about 100
hours on them) put on by the previous owner. So, I think we want to do
a custom overall of this particular engine. Does that make sense?

It is too early to tell what you need to do. With that amount of
metal - I would tear the engine down and inspect the crank/bearings,
etc. You may be able to reuse the cylinders.

-Nathan

Glad to hear you made it safely. You are based in Wisconsin, right?

Right. Central Wisconsin.

Where was the failure? Northern Wisconsin can be an unforgiving area
for an off-airport landing (miles and miles of dense forests).


I was on a business trip in Washington D.C., so I was out of a small
airport called Tipton Field (FME). I ended up landing at Gaithersburg.

Had a prop interference overhaul done at Poplar Grove, IL a couple of
years ago. I visited the shop when the had the engine apart and was
really impressed.

Again, my contention is that you are better off checking one mag at a time, to
verify the mags ground out properly, and then check the off position of the switch
using an ohmmeter rather than causing the engine to backfire.

The other alternative I guess is to leave the switch in the off position once you
put it there, let the engine shut down completely, then restart it and shut it down
normally.

Dave Butler wrote:

Ray Andraka wrote:
Why,

If you check the left and then the right mag, you know that both of them will
ground out properly without risking damage due to a backfire. The only thing
that individually checking the mags won't find is a switch that is defective
in the off position only, pretty unlikely. If you are that paranoid about the
switch, you can check it with an ohmmeter with the engine stopped.

Many (OK, some) ignition switches have an AD with a recurring inspection
requirement that requires testing the OFF position every 100 hours. AD 76-07-12


Orval Fairbairn wrote:


Very unlikely -- all the P-lead break does is prevent you from shutting
down that mag. It is a good idea to pefrorm a "both off" check when
doing a mag check. That way, you will be able to find a broken P-lead.


--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759



--
Dave Butler, software engineer 919-392-4367

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

Tipton (FME) is small? That's a pretty big field. Suburban (W18) which is
about 3 miles away is a small airport (2300'x25' with trees at both ends
and a significant slope to the runway). Tipton, also has more of a big
airport feel with the staff, not nearly as friendly.

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote:



Glad to hear you made it safely. You are based in Wisconsin, right?

Right. Central Wisconsin.

Where was the failure? Northern Wisconsin can be an unforgiving area
for an off-airport landing (miles and miles of dense forests).


I was on a business trip in Washington D.C., so I was out of a small
airport called Tipton Field (FME). I ended up landing at Gaithersburg.

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

Good point. I just meant that it was not a BWI or a tower controller
airport, for example. I should have beem more specific.

-Sami

Ray Andraka wrote:

Tipton (FME) is small? That's a pretty big field. Suburban (W18) which is
about 3 miles away is a small airport (2300'x25' with trees at both ends
and a significant slope to the runway). Tipton, also has more of a big
airport feel with the staff, not nearly as friendly.

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote:



Glad to hear you made it safely. You are based in Wisconsin, right?

Right. Central Wisconsin.


Where was the failure? Northern Wisconsin can be an unforgiving area
for an off-airport landing (miles and miles of dense forests).


I was on a business trip in Washington D.C., so I was out of a small
airport called Tipton Field (FME). I ended up landing at Gaithersburg.


--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

Yeah, that is where my A&P just recommended that I send it. Your
endorsement makes me fee all the better! Thanks.

PaulH wrote:

Had a prop interference overhaul done at Poplar Grove, IL a couple of
years ago. I visited the shop when the had the engine apart and was
really impressed.

(Bill Hale) wrote in message . com...
"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message ...
Well, it happended. I have owned the plane (Piper Turbo Arrow III) for
3 months and the engine failed during climb out on Tuesday. Altitude
was 4400 feet. Luckily, the engine did not entirely quit and I made it
to an airport within 10 miles. TBO was 1000 hours away. Dissapointing!
When we cut the oil filter, it was full of fairly large aluminum and
steel bits of metal. Arg!

What is wrong with this engine? The symptoms surely don't relate to
P leads or magneto wires.

Why not run a compression check on it? Take off the valve cover on
any suspicious cylinders. What's in there?

Take off the cylinder, if you figure out
that it's only one. See what's going on. What's the cam look like?

With the cylinder off, you can look inside the case for clues.

There are a lot of failures where you could do a repair and be back
in business--unless something got loose and whanged around inside.
The oil filter probably kept stuff out of the bearings.

Sure, it kept the stuff out of the bearings. But the oil pump
is upstream of the filter, and all that metal garbage went through it
and chewed it up. "Fixing up" the engine is spending money on an
engine that will fail again very shortly, if it generates any oil
pressure at all. Nothing less than complete teardown is necessary
here.

Dan

Sure, it kept the stuff out of the bearings. But the oil pump
is upstream of the filter, and all that metal garbage went through it
and chewed it up. "Fixing up" the engine is spending money on an
engine that will fail again very shortly, if it generates any oil
pressure at all. Nothing less than complete teardown is necessary
here.


Yes, seems reasonable, painful as that conclusion is.
Price tag: $21K (plus labor). Gulp.

In article ,
"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote:

Sure, it kept the stuff out of the bearings. But the oil pump
is upstream of the filter, and all that metal garbage went through it
and chewed it up. "Fixing up" the engine is spending money on an
engine that will fail again very shortly, if it generates any oil
pressure at all. Nothing less than complete teardown is necessary
here.


Yes, seems reasonable, painful as that conclusion is.
Price tag: $21K (plus labor). Gulp.

I can only offer my own experience. My club had an Archer which showed
metal in the oil filter. The engine had about 1300 SMOH, and this was
the third run on the engine. We tried pulling cylinders and opening the
oil pump trying to find the problem and ended up just throwing a lot of
good money after bad. In the end, we racked up a lot of shop bills and
still had to get a new engine.

IHMO, the aviation gods have smiled upon you. They made the engine last
long enough to get you safely on the ground so you could write that $21k
check. The alternative could have been much worse.