Is TSO Required for Certified Glider Communications Radio?

TSO requirements have been discussed at length in previous threads,
Admittedly I don't recall them specifically talking about radios. But
the short version is there is no requirement to install TSO anything
in most gliders.

big HOWEVER, there are operations that require TSO equipment and the
FAR's will specifically say that TSO'ed equipment is required. This is
usually for Transponders or IFR operations, I am sure there are
others.
It is possible also that your particular aircraft manufacter has
required TSO equipment in the aircraft as well and that will be
spelled out in the aircraft documentation.

Many people, including some FAA inspectors, have the false notion that
all instruments need to be TSO'ed. When you find one of these ask them
where you can find the TSO'ed G-meter to install. Hint, there is no
TSO for G-Meters.

So unless someone can find a specific requirement for the equipment to
be TSO'ed, Then it does not need to be TSO'ed. Best bet might be to
look up the TSO number for Radio's and then search the FAR's to see
where this TSO is required.

Brian

On Mar 22, 9:54*pm, sky wrote:
On Mar 22, 11:30*am, "noel.wade" wrote:





Here are some questions that help clarify the answers to this issue:
(as annoying as this can be)

1) Is a radio "required" equipment for a day-VFR flight?
(which covers 99.99% of all Glider flying; at least in the USA)

2) How is the glider in question certified (standard vs.
experimental)?

What do the FARs say about items #1 and #2 above? *More importantly,
what do they _not_ say about radios?
(Hint: see 91.205, the sections of Part 91 that apply to the airspace
you expect to fly in/through, and Part 43).

--Noel
P.S. *Don't forget this "gotcha": *Your weight and balance is
technically affected by instrument changes in the cockpit. *See the
FARs about how you can re-calculate your W&B based on an "equipment
list" and the instrument location (i.e. Arm or Datum point).
Insurance companies or FAA inspectors may not look kindly on an
incorrect equipment list or a W&B that doesn't take new items - like
radios - into account.

All,

Thanks for the responses. *To be clear, the radio would be a new 760
channel aircraft like the Microair 760 -approved by the FCC but not
TSOed.. *The glider is certified standard. *I know handhelds do not
require FAA approval but do require FCC approval and no one has ever
suggested that using them for communications during flight is not
legal. *I understand the need that the installation be signed off by a
FAA licensed mechanic to insure it is wired safely, mounted securely,
and W&B updated but otherwise I do not understand why TSO
certification should be required as the radio is not part of a minimum
equipment list.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think you are worrying far too much, maybe because you either
cannot, or don't wish to, do the installation yourself.

Many glider pilots would buy the radio of their choice, build the
wiring harness, do the installation, update the w/b and then get the
IA that does the next inspection to sign it off. Of course you need
to check that your IA is willing to do that.

The more people you get involved with the radio selection,
installation, and approval the more problems you will bring on
yourself.


Andy (GY)

On Mar 23, 1:18*pm, Andy wrote:
On Mar 22, 9:54*pm, sky wrote:





On Mar 22, 11:30*am, "noel.wade" wrote:

Here are some questions that help clarify the answers to this issue:
(as annoying as this can be)

1) Is a radio "required" equipment for a day-VFR flight?
(which covers 99.99% of all Glider flying; at least in the USA)

2) How is the glider in question certified (standard vs.
experimental)?

What do the FARs say about items #1 and #2 above? *More importantly,
what do they _not_ say about radios?
(Hint: see 91.205, the sections of Part 91 that apply to the airspace
you expect to fly in/through, and Part 43).

--Noel
P.S. *Don't forget this "gotcha": *Your weight and balance is
technically affected by instrument changes in the cockpit. *See the
FARs about how you can re-calculate your W&B based on an "equipment
list" and the instrument location (i.e. Arm or Datum point).
Insurance companies or FAA inspectors may not look kindly on an
incorrect equipment list or a W&B that doesn't take new items - like
radios - into account.

All,

Thanks for the responses. *To be clear, the radio would be a new 760
channel aircraft like the Microair 760 -approved by the FCC but not
TSOed.. *The glider is certified standard. *I know handhelds do not
require FAA approval but do require FCC approval and no one has ever
suggested that using them for communications during flight is not
legal. *I understand the need that the installation be signed off by a
FAA licensed mechanic to insure it is wired safely, mounted securely,
and W&B updated but otherwise I do not understand why TSO
certification should be required as the radio is not part of a minimum
equipment list.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think you are worrying far too much, maybe because you either
cannot, or don't wish to, do the installation yourself.

Many glider pilots would buy the radio of their choice, build the
wiring harness, do the installation, update the w/b and then get the
IA that does the next inspection to sign it off. *Of course you need
to check that your IA is willing to do that.

The more people you get involved with the radio selection,
installation, and approval the more problems you will bring on
yourself.

Andy (GY)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Technically you can't install a panel mount radio yourself. If you
get an AI to sign off your work, then HE did the install. At least he
takes full responsibility for the job. You would be considered to be
"working under his direct supervision."

I know some AI's who might do this, and others who would not (for good
reason).

BUT.........if it is a non TSO'd radio........you need a form 337 and
a "field approval". Easy to get, if you "know the right people".

I know there a lots of "pilot installed" radios installed in gliders
without paperwork, or improper paperwork..........nobody seems to ever
check.

Cookie

On Mar 23, 10:31*am, Brian wrote:
TSO requirements have been discussed at length in previous threads,
Admittedly I don't recall them specifically talking about radios. But
the short version is there is no requirement to install TSO anything
in most gliders.

big HOWEVER, there are operations that require TSO equipment and the
FAR's will specifically say that TSO'ed equipment is required. This is
usually for Transponders or IFR operations, I am sure there are
others.
It is possible also that your particular aircraft manufacter has
required TSO equipment in the aircraft as well and that will be
spelled out in the aircraft documentation.

Many people, including some FAA inspectors, have the false notion that
all instruments need to be TSO'ed. When you find one of these ask them
where you can find the TSO'ed G-meter to install. Hint, there is no
TSO for G-Meters.

So unless someone can find a specific requirement for the equipment to
be TSO'ed, Then it does not need to be TSO'ed. Best bet might be to
look up the TSO number for Radio's and then search the FAR's to see
where this TSO is required.

Brian

It is my belief that non TSO'd equipment CAN be installed, provided
the FAA accepts the paperwork. (Maybe in certain instances the FAA
will not accept non TSO install)


Cookie

On Mar 23, 7:05*pm, "
wrote:
Technically you can't install a panel mount radio yourself. *If you
get an AI to sign off your work, then HE did the install. *At least he
takes full responsibility for the job. *You would be considered to be
"working under his direct supervision."

I know some AI's who might do this, and others who would not (for good
reason).

BUT.........if it is a non TSO'd radio........you need a form 337 and
a "field approval". *Easy to get, if you "know the right people".

Your answer is inaccurate (or at least incomplete). Check part 43 and
its applicability to Experimental (or other-than-standard) aircraft.
A lot of gliders are registered in this way and it changes a lot of
the limits and requirements on what requires an A&P, an IA, a
"repairman's certificate", or a Form 337.

I know the FARs aren't _fun_ reading; but they _are_ readable. An
hour or two with a FAR/AIM manual is easier than several days of
reading opinions on RAS!

--Noel

On Mar 23, 9:05*pm, "
wrote:
On Mar 23, 1:18*pm, Andy wrote:



On Mar 22, 9:54*pm, sky wrote:

On Mar 22, 11:30*am, "noel.wade" wrote:

Here are some questions that help clarify the answers to this issue:
(as annoying as this can be)

1) Is a radio "required" equipment for a day-VFR flight?
(which covers 99.99% of all Glider flying; at least in the USA)

2) How is the glider in question certified (standard vs.
experimental)?

What do the FARs say about items #1 and #2 above? *More importantly,
what do they _not_ say about radios?
(Hint: see 91.205, the sections of Part 91 that apply to the airspace
you expect to fly in/through, and Part 43).

--Noel
P.S. *Don't forget this "gotcha": *Your weight and balance is
technically affected by instrument changes in the cockpit. *See the
FARs about how you can re-calculate your W&B based on an "equipment
list" and the instrument location (i.e. Arm or Datum point).
Insurance companies or FAA inspectors may not look kindly on an
incorrect equipment list or a W&B that doesn't take new items - like
radios - into account.

All,

Thanks for the responses. *To be clear, the radio would be a new 760
channel aircraft like the Microair 760 -approved by the FCC but not
TSOed.. *The glider is certified standard. *I know handhelds do not
require FAA approval but do require FCC approval and no one has ever
suggested that using them for communications during flight is not
legal. *I understand the need that the installation be signed off by a
FAA licensed mechanic to insure it is wired safely, mounted securely,
and W&B updated but otherwise I do not understand why TSO
certification should be required as the radio is not part of a minimum
equipment list.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think you are worrying far too much, maybe because you either
cannot, or don't wish to, do the installation yourself.

Many glider pilots would buy the radio of their choice, build the
wiring harness, do the installation, update the w/b and then get the
IA that does the next inspection to sign it off. *Of course you need
to check that your IA is willing to do that.

The more people you get involved with the radio selection,
installation, and approval the more problems you will bring on
yourself.

Andy (GY)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Technically you can't install a panel mount radio yourself. *If you
get an AI to sign off your work, then HE did the install. *At least he
takes full responsibility for the job. *You would be considered to be
"working under his direct supervision."

I know some AI's who might do this, and others who would not (for good
reason).

BUT.........if it is a non TSO'd radio........you need a form 337 and
a "field approval". *Easy to get, if you "know the right people".

I know there a lots of "pilot installed" radios installed in gliders
without paperwork, or improper paperwork..........nobody seems to ever
check.

Cookie

The need for a 337 has nothing to do with a piece of equipment meeting
a TSO or not. If the installation is a major alteration, it needs a
337. Many radio installations are not major alterations.
Transponders need to meet their applicable TSO because the regulation
specifically says they do. Comm radios for part 91 ops do not need to
meet any TSO.

On Mar 23, 8:05*pm, "
wrote:
On Mar 23, 1:18*pm, Andy wrote:





On Mar 22, 9:54*pm, sky wrote:

On Mar 22, 11:30*am, "noel.wade" wrote:

Here are some questions that help clarify the answers to this issue:
(as annoying as this can be)

1) Is a radio "required" equipment for a day-VFR flight?
(which covers 99.99% of all Glider flying; at least in the USA)

2) How is the glider in question certified (standard vs.
experimental)?

What do the FARs say about items #1 and #2 above? *More importantly,
what do they _not_ say about radios?
(Hint: see 91.205, the sections of Part 91 that apply to the airspace
you expect to fly in/through, and Part 43).

--Noel
P.S. *Don't forget this "gotcha": *Your weight and balance is
technically affected by instrument changes in the cockpit. *See the
FARs about how you can re-calculate your W&B based on an "equipment
list" and the instrument location (i.e. Arm or Datum point).
Insurance companies or FAA inspectors may not look kindly on an
incorrect equipment list or a W&B that doesn't take new items - like
radios - into account.

All,

Thanks for the responses. *To be clear, the radio would be a new 760
channel aircraft like the Microair 760 -approved by the FCC but not
TSOed.. *The glider is certified standard. *I know handhelds do not
require FAA approval but do require FCC approval and no one has ever
suggested that using them for communications during flight is not
legal. *I understand the need that the installation be signed off by a
FAA licensed mechanic to insure it is wired safely, mounted securely,
and W&B updated but otherwise I do not understand why TSO
certification should be required as the radio is not part of a minimum
equipment list.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think you are worrying far too much, maybe because you either
cannot, or don't wish to, do the installation yourself.

Many glider pilots would buy the radio of their choice, build the
wiring harness, do the installation, update the w/b and then get the
IA that does the next inspection to sign it off. *Of course you need
to check that your IA is willing to do that.

The more people you get involved with the radio selection,
installation, and approval the more problems you will bring on
yourself.

Andy (GY)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Technically you can't install a panel mount radio yourself. *If you
get an AI to sign off your work, then HE did the install. *At least he
takes full responsibility for the job. *You would be considered to be
"working under his direct supervision."

I know some AI's who might do this, and others who would not (for good
reason).

BUT.........if it is a non TSO'd radio........you need a form 337 and
a "field approval". *Easy to get, if you "know the right people".

I know there a lots of "pilot installed" radios installed in gliders
without paperwork, or improper paperwork..........nobody seems to ever
check.

Cookie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Is there ever a situation where a TSO'ed radio can be installed
without a 337 and the same/similar non-TSO'ed radio would required a
337? Why?

Brian

On Mar 23, 9:02*pm, Brian wrote:
On Mar 23, 8:05*pm, "



wrote:
On Mar 23, 1:18*pm, Andy wrote:

On Mar 22, 9:54*pm, sky wrote:

On Mar 22, 11:30*am, "noel.wade" wrote:

Here are some questions that help clarify the answers to this issue:
(as annoying as this can be)

1) Is a radio "required" equipment for a day-VFR flight?
(which covers 99.99% of all Glider flying; at least in the USA)

2) How is the glider in question certified (standard vs.
experimental)?

What do the FARs say about items #1 and #2 above? *More importantly,
what do they _not_ say about radios?
(Hint: see 91.205, the sections of Part 91 that apply to the airspace
you expect to fly in/through, and Part 43).

--Noel
P.S. *Don't forget this "gotcha": *Your weight and balance is
technically affected by instrument changes in the cockpit. *See the
FARs about how you can re-calculate your W&B based on an "equipment
list" and the instrument location (i.e. Arm or Datum point).
Insurance companies or FAA inspectors may not look kindly on an
incorrect equipment list or a W&B that doesn't take new items - like
radios - into account.

All,

Thanks for the responses. *To be clear, the radio would be a new 760
channel aircraft like the Microair 760 -approved by the FCC but not
TSOed.. *The glider is certified standard. *I know handhelds do not
require FAA approval but do require FCC approval and no one has ever
suggested that using them for communications during flight is not
legal. *I understand the need that the installation be signed off by a
FAA licensed mechanic to insure it is wired safely, mounted securely,
and W&B updated but otherwise I do not understand why TSO
certification should be required as the radio is not part of a minimum
equipment list.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think you are worrying far too much, maybe because you either
cannot, or don't wish to, do the installation yourself.

Many glider pilots would buy the radio of their choice, build the
wiring harness, do the installation, update the w/b and then get the
IA that does the next inspection to sign it off. *Of course you need
to check that your IA is willing to do that.

The more people you get involved with the radio selection,
installation, and approval the more problems you will bring on
yourself.

Andy (GY)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Technically you can't install a panel mount radio yourself. *If you
get an AI to sign off your work, then HE did the install. *At least he
takes full responsibility for the job. *You would be considered to be
"working under his direct supervision."

I know some AI's who might do this, and others who would not (for good
reason).

BUT.........if it is a non TSO'd radio........you need a form 337 and
a "field approval". *Easy to get, if you "know the right people".

I know there a lots of "pilot installed" radios installed in gliders
without paperwork, or improper paperwork..........nobody seems to ever
check.

Cookie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Is there ever a situation where a TSO'ed radio can be installed
without a 337 and the same/similar non-TSO'ed radio would required a
337? *Why?

Brian

Why a 337 in either case? Because your A&P/IA decided to file a 337,
maybe because they know they FSDO prefers that. Maybe they know the
FSDO does not want to be bothered with a 337 for a dinky radio install
and they'll sign off on the install without one. A lot of this is
judgment. If a 337 is filed I personally doubt it should have anything
to do with the radio being installed being TSO'ed or not.

We are flogging a dead horse here. Again, this was a question about a
certificated (not experimental) glider -- so find an A&P/IA you trust
and just do what they say. They will know what the FSDO wants with a
337 (or not). And you can talk to them about doing the work under
their supervision if you want to try that route.


Darryl

On Mar 23, 10:28*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
On Mar 23, 7:05*pm, "

wrote:
Technically you can't install a panel mount radio yourself. *If you
get an AI to sign off your work, then HE did the install. *At least he
takes full responsibility for the job. *You would be considered to be
"working under his direct supervision."

I know some AI's who might do this, and others who would not (for good
reason).

BUT.........if it is a non TSO'd radio........you need a form 337 and
a "field approval". *Easy to get, if you "know the right people".

Your answer is inaccurate (or at least incomplete). *Check part 43 and
its applicability to Experimental (or other-than-standard) aircraft.
A lot of gliders are registered in this way and it changes a lot of
the limits and requirements on what requires an A&P, an IA, a
"repairman's certificate", or a Form 337.

I know the FARs aren't _fun_ reading; but they _are_ readable. *An
hour or two with a FAR/AIM manual is easier than several days of
reading opinions on RAS!

--Noel

I thought we were talking about non tso'd comm radio installed into a
certificated aircraft. Some people are under the misconception that
non tso'ed can't be used. (Check out Cumulus soaring for instance).

Yes, experimental is different.

Bottom line, I don't think there is any sailplane where as non tso'd
radio can't be used. Same for transponder.

Cookie

On Mar 24, 6:20*am, "
wrote:

Bottom line, I don't think there is any sailplane where as non tso'd
radio can't be used. *Same for transponder.

Cookie

Transponders do need to meet TSO requirements as per 91.215:

(a) All airspace: U.S.-registered civil aircraft. For operations not
conducted under part 121 or 135 of this chapter, ATC transponder
equipment installed must meet the performance and environmental
requirements of any class of TSO-C74b (Mode A) or any class of TSO-
C74c (Mode A with altitude reporting capability) as appropriate, or
the appropriate class of TSO-C112 (Mode S).