FLAPS

Bob Salvo wrote:
The original post referred to gliders that used flaps and divebrakes
(spoilers), not gliders that use only flaps for landing. Flap only gliders
that use flaps for landing require more accurate speed control during
approach/landings. I once saw an HP-10 (no spoilers) float the entire
length of the runway and end up in the trees at the far end, just because
the very experienced pilot did not pay attention to his approach speed. I
heard about another competent airman who flew a Schweizer 1-35 (again no
spoilers) for the first time and had trouble putting it down, so he removed
the flaps to prevent over running the runway; he landed hard, causing minor
damage to the fuselage. OTOH, on a flapped/spoilered ship, I've seen a very
experienced pilot mistake the flap control for the spoiler control and end
up in a tree just short of the runway.

Udo provides some very valuable advice that newcomers to flaps would be
wise to heed. This includes taking a high tow on your first flight,
practicing with the flaps at altitude, and assuring that the runway is
long. This is what I did on my first flight in a flapped (flaps-only)
ship. I had only about 25 hours flying anything at the time. I agree
with Udo that flaps should not be feared. Of course they must be
respected. But dumb/dangerous maneuvers can be done in any glider with
or without flaps.

Regards,

-Doug

Hi Bob,
I can recite the same scenarios with conventional gliders.
During my first four seasons of flying my "dangers Glider"
A Twin Grob got bang up twice, in the last one it got written off.
In each case Pilots flying solo in it.
An other incident an Astir landed short and it got written off as well.
Shortly there after a Blanik with a CFI on board landing short running into
a fence also a write off.
All home field mishaps
This was the beginning of the end for the club and I am sad to say the club
is no longer with us.
Udo



"Bob Salvo" wrote in message
...
The original post referred to gliders that used flaps and divebrakes
(spoilers), not gliders that use only flaps for landing. Flap only
gliders
that use flaps for landing require more accurate speed control during
approach/landings. I once saw an HP-10 (no spoilers) float the entire
length of the runway and end up in the trees at the far end, just because
the very experienced pilot did not pay attention to his approach speed. I
heard about another competent airman who flew a Schweizer 1-35 (again no
spoilers) for the first time and had trouble putting it down, so he
removed
the flaps to prevent over running the runway; he landed hard, causing
minor
damage to the fuselage. OTOH, on a flapped/spoilered ship, I've seen a
very
experienced pilot mistake the flap control for the spoiler control and end
up in a tree just short of the runway.

"Udo Rumpf" wrote in message
...

None of the CFI's I knew were of help.
It takes common sense, some forethought and a competent airman
to start, regardless of how many hours you have. I my case I
made my first flight in an all flapped glider after 14 hours in Gliders
and completed my 300 km O&T after 40hours.
As well as 3 outlanding in previous attempt all with this flapped glider.
Please do not make it sound as if flying a flapped glider the first time
out
is dangerous. It is no more dangerous then going solo.
Also, in my comments I provide a way to reduce the need for flap use the
first time out.
Udo


"Ron Gregg" wrote in message
...

AMEN

Ron Gregg, CFI


In article , Roy Bourgeois
wrote:

It is interesting to see how this thread changed from a response to a
simple request for opinions about the advisability of flaps on a first
ship
- to a discussion of "how to land with flaps" then "It's OK to retract
flaps on landing - because I did it" So let me please add a note of
caution to the new pilot readers: 1) Flight/ground instruction should
be
done in person and by somebody who knows you and the specific glider
you
are learning to fly. 2) Read and understand the POH for the glider you
are
about to fly - it is more reliable than Internet postings. 3) Accept
that
retracting the flaps on approach is a very dangerous maneuver for the
new
pilot and the observation that some highly experienced pilots can do
it
safely does not mean that you should try it.

Roy B. CFI

Been there, done that (not properly locked the flaps when set). You need to
react very fast on the stick, and you should have carried some extra speed
before.

Of course I agree with Roy - you can do a lot of things if you have the
required experience... (and for the ASW20, I happen to have a couple of
hundred hours on that glider). As for novice counsel, a newsgroup doesn't
help anybody very much. You normally don't know where the advice comes from,
and if you really want to have advice on how to fly or what glider to buy,
you talk to instructors or experienced people *at an airfield*. Newsgroups
are rather, hm, amusing gossip?

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Andreas Maurer" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:33:00 +0200, "Bert Willing"
wrote:

I second that. I have retracted from 55 deg flap to thermal position less
than 5 meters above the runway, and if memory serves me right, I didn't
crash :-)

Unlock the flap lever in your 20 at a height of about 2 meters (... if
necessary I can tell you how to do that...) and you'll get the
experience of a purely ballistic impact one second later.


I think in the end it's a question of many factors - situational
awareness (remember to pull up the nose while retracting the flaps,
remembering not to overshoot the desired setting), training, and
feeling (coordination of flap retraction, pulling on the stick and
controlling the speed).
If the pilot is alert and knows what he's doing, there is not going to
be any problem. If not, some gliders are going to punish the pilot
more than others.


Reading about Udo's story of first flying a flapped ship with 14
glider hours (most of my students have mor hours when they solo) on a
airport with a long runway because his home airport's runway is only
2.000 ft makes me think about how different the situation is in the
US/Canada compared to good ole' Europe...



Bye
Andreas

Bert Willing wrote:
Been there, done that (not properly locked the flaps when set). You need to
react very fast on the stick, and you should have carried some extra speed
before.

Of course I agree with Roy - you can do a lot of things if you have the
required experience... (and for the ASW20, I happen to have a couple of
hundred hours on that glider). As for novice counsel, a newsgroup doesn't
help anybody very much. You normally don't know where the advice comes from,
and if you really want to have advice on how to fly or what glider to buy,
you talk to instructors or experienced people *at an airfield*. Newsgroups
are rather, hm, amusing gossip?

I agree that one must be careful when getting "advice" from a newsgroup
or lots of places on the internet. In my case I first sought
information on how to fly my RS-15 (flaps only) from at least three
different CFIGs at two different airfields. The only "help" I got was
a lecture from one CFIG in California on how flaps only could get me in
trouble in strong lift just beneath a cloud. But I really don't blame
those CFIGs because they simply had no experience with this type of
glider. As it turned out I received a lot of very valuable information
from people belnging to a Yahoo Group dedicated to that type of glider.
But your point about being careful of the source of information on the
internet is a good one.

Btw, regarding advice on what glider to buy: The head of the FBO was
convinced I could not handle the RS and would likely spin it in
straight away. Since I was relying on him at the time to get my
license, that became an "issue". We had words. I eventually
discovered the flight characteristics of the RS to be very gentle and
an overall pleasure to fly. Compared to the G-103 which I had been
training in the RS felt "spin-proof". But I was needlessly scared
stiff for my first flight in the RS.

Regards,

-Doug

Yeah... What Udo and Steve said... EGAD!!! THOSE FLAPS!!!

Jack Womack

Yeah... What Udo and Steve said... EGAD!!! THOSE FLAPS!!!

Jack Womack

Derek Copeland wrote:

3) Spin recovery becomes a bit more complicated. You
are most likely to spin when turning slowly in a thermal
with positive flap selected, in which case the first
action must be to select neutral or negative flap before
carrying out the normal spin recovery. Otherwise you
risk exceeding the flap limiting speed in the recovery
dive, which is a possible cause of several glider break-ups
and fatalities.

Be sure to read and heed the manual. In the ASW 20 and ASH 26, for
example, selecting negative flap is used to halt the spin more quickly,
not just to avoid potential overspeeding for the thermalling flap
position. In those gliders, selecting negative flap may be sufficient to
stop the spin with no further action.
--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA