FOR SALE NEW NK CLEAR NAV

On Sep 11, 11:46*am, Richard wrote:
On Sep 10, 7:57*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:



Several of these devices you see coming out run Windows CE, from which
Windows Mobile is based. There is a fairly large market for Windows CE
based controllers/display nits for point of sale and similar
applications from which the ClearNav and presumably this one are
based. And leveraging existing technology is a good thing. Porting
Windows Mobile based applications like WinPilot and SeeYou Mobile to
these devices should be relatively easy.

Darryl

On Sep 10, 7:44*pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:

So, Richard, what operating system does it use? *I'm presuming is isn't
"Windows Vista Ultimate" due to the hardware requirements for Vista. *Google
doesn't turn up any other "Ultimate Operating System".

FWIW, Winpilot at one time (and maybe still) delivered a fully functional
Win32 version along with the PDA version. *GPS_LOG Win CE does this too.
All you need to run the Win32 versions is a computer with an X86 compatible
processor running some version of the Windows OS.

I often run GPS_LOG in one window on my desktop and SeeYou or Condor in
another. *I use a loopback serial cable to transfer NMEA data from SeeYor or
Condor from Com1 to Com2 where GPS_LOG picks it up and displays it. *It's a
great way to learn PDA software.

Bill D

"Richard" wrote in message

....
On Sep 10, 4:46 pm, Andy wrote:

On Sep 7, 6:47 am, Richard wrote:

The Craggy Aero Ultimate supports Borgelt Varios, B50, B500, CAI 302,
LX1600, or any NMEA GPS. Software WinPilot PRO or ADV.

Larger Screen , 4 times the resolution VGA, more processing power,
brighter adjustable display.

http://www.craggyaero.com/ultimate.htm

Shipping in October 2008.

The fact that it is intended to support see you mobile is a major plus
as far as I'm concerned. The SeeYou team has a good history of
supporting their software and for being open to user suggestions.
Will that also be available in October? Will users be able to load
software updates obtained directly from the See You web site?

Andy

Naviter has said they will support the Ultimate Platform, but have not
give a date. * It will be a new software package specific to the
Ulitimate operating system. * Current users probalby will not be able
to transfer their license. *I believe users will be able to update
from the SeeYou site or my web site.

Thanks for your interest.

Richardwww.craggyaero.com-Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Daryll,

The Craggy Ultimate uses a windows CE operating system.
Unfortunately *Porting
Windows Mobile based applications like WinPilot and SeeYou Mobile to
these devices is not relatively easy. *I have this feedback from both
WinPilot and Naviter.

Richardwww.craggyaero.com

Rchard

The meaning of the word relative is um err relative to something.
Relative to any other operating system I can think of, porting from
Windows Mobile to Windows CE is relatively easy. You clearly need to
make a choice of an appropriate Windows CE platform. Windows XP
Embedded, Windows XP, Windows Vista, OS/X, Linux or FreeBSD + GUI of
your choice, VxWorks, ..., ... are all going to be *much* harder.

Personally I'll pay much more attention to this space once Naviter has
SeeYou Mobile running on this class of devices. I'm getting old and
set in my ways and unwilling to change my software tools. Given the
space premium I also look forward to the day that a GUI flight
computer will fully include in one integrated package all soaring
specific instruments including a world class (C302 is my benchmark)
electronic audio vario, with inputs for gear warnings, etc. similar to
the 302. The display may be separate from the rest of the system, but
the display needs to be the display for as much as possible and the
system really needs to be properly integrated.

Darryl

I very much like the idea of a daylight readable screen and I am attracted
to the ClearNav and the Ultimate but they both puzzle me:

ClearNav - I don't understand the logic in having the GPS and logger
inside the display unit instead of in a compact panel mount
vario/gps/logger unit similar to the Cambridge 302. It may all make sense
if they come up with a very good and inexpensive compatible variometer.
Until then I'm out.

Ultimate - No matter how good the display I couldn't bring myself to pay
$2,500 (almost as much as the ClearNav) for a PDA replacement even
although it is bigger brighter and faster.

John Galloway

On Sep 11, 12:38*pm, John Galloway wrote:
I very much like the idea of a daylight readable screen and I am attracted
to the ClearNav and the Ultimate but they both puzzle me:

ClearNav - I don't understand the logic in having the GPS and logger
inside the display unit instead of in a compact panel mount
vario/gps/logger unit similar to the Cambridge 302. *It may all make sense
if they come up with a very good and inexpensive compatible variometer. *
Until then I'm out.

Ultimate - No matter how good the display I couldn't bring myself to pay
$2,500 (almost as much as the ClearNav) for a PDA replacement even
although it is bigger brighter and faster.

John Galloway

The ClearNav folks clearly have a team capable of doing a world class
vario/logger and say it's coming in 2009. Like you I don't fully
understand the logic of what they've done so far -- I'd prefer to see
a separate black box with GPS/logger/vario/airspeed/temp/undercarriage
sensors etc. all in once place with the display providing just display
and compute. Maybe support different version with basic GPS through to
full vario etc. in the black box, and with a goal of easily upgrading
either component over time as technology changes.

When CleanNav comes out with a vario I hope they have an option to
*not* have it panel mount. I would be out of space. A thin moving tape
type display for the vario might work well down the side of the
ClearNav for example. This becomes an issue when wanting to integrate
third party software like SeeYou with a device like this. The desire
to be integrated would mean you end up where it really is more than a
port of existing software.

Darryl

Anbody have side by side specs for the Ultimate and ClearNav? I
originally thought the Ultimate took more space and power; and seemed
to offer less function for the same $s, as you mentioned. But this
may be incorrect.

Steve

On Sep 11, 3:38*pm, John Galloway wrote:
I very much like the idea of a daylight readable screen and I am attracted
to the ClearNav and the Ultimate but they both puzzle me:

ClearNav - I don't understand the logic in having the GPS and logger
inside the display unit instead of in a compact panel mount
vario/gps/logger unit similar to the Cambridge 302. *It may all make sense
if they come up with a very good and inexpensive compatible variometer. *
Until then I'm out.

Ultimate - No matter how good the display I couldn't bring myself to pay
$2,500 (almost as much as the ClearNav) for a PDA replacement even
although it is bigger brighter and faster.

John Galloway

Hi Steve,

You can see specs on the ClearNav he
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/nk.htm

I'm curious about the user interface on the "Ultimate". I believe it is a
trackball. I personally would prefer the keypad used on the ClearNav to a
trackball.

I find the ClearNav's keypad to be very easy to use. Also, the ClearNav is
very much designed with "simple user-interface" as a key design
consideration. I think it succeeds at that goal superbly. I predict that
there will be many more ClearNav units sold than "Ultimate" systems. Also,
NK is a first class company that will be creating many very nice soaring
instruments in the near future and they (and I) will support the ClearNav
extremely well. But I'm biased because I sell, support and am writing the
manual for the ClearNav.

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com

"126Driver" wrote in message
...
Anbody have side by side specs for the Ultimate and ClearNav? I
originally thought the Ultimate took more space and power; and seemed
to offer less function for the same $s, as you mentioned. But this
may be incorrect.

Steve

On Sep 11, 3:38 pm, John Galloway wrote:
I very much like the idea of a daylight readable screen and I am attracted
to the ClearNav and the Ultimate but they both puzzle me:

ClearNav - I don't understand the logic in having the GPS and logger
inside the display unit instead of in a compact panel mount
vario/gps/logger unit similar to the Cambridge 302. It may all make sense
if they come up with a very good and inexpensive compatible variometer.
Until then I'm out.

Ultimate - No matter how good the display I couldn't bring myself to pay
$2,500 (almost as much as the ClearNav) for a PDA replacement even
although it is bigger brighter and faster.

John Galloway

I disagree strongly, the controls should be clustered around the screen.
The remote is just an other piece of hardware attached to a wire flying
around the cockpit. Naturally I can see and understand your bias.
There are products that function much closer to my way of thinking and I
am not bias. See http://www.triadis.ch
Udo

I find the ClearNav's keypad to be very easy to use. Also, the
ClearNav
is
very much designed with "simple user-interface" as a key design
consideration. I think it succeeds at that goal superbly. I predict
that

there will be many more ClearNav units sold than "Ultimate" systems.
Also,
NK is a first class company that will be creating many very nice soaring

instruments in the near future and they (and I) will support the ClearNav

extremely well. But I'm biased because I sell, support and am writing
the

I disagree strongly, the controls should be clustered around the screen.
The remote is just an other piece of hardware attached to a wire flying
around the cockpit. Naturally I can see and understand your bias.
There are products that function much closer to my way of thinking and I
am not bias. See http://www.triadis.ch
Udo

I find the ClearNav's keypad to be very easy to use. Also, the
ClearNav
is
very much designed with "simple user-interface" as a key design
consideration. I think it succeeds at that goal superbly. I predict
that

there will be many more ClearNav units sold than "Ultimate" systems.
Also,
NK is a first class company that will be creating many very nice soaring

instruments in the near future and they (and I) will support the ClearNav

extremely well. But I'm biased because I sell, support and am writing
the

I think the hand control is one of the most attractive features of the
ClearNav. I flew for several years with a Borgelt B100, and later a
B2000, with the remote control velcroed to the top of left side of the
seat pan where my left hand rested. It was a perfectly natural and
intuitive arrangement that was far easier and steadier to use than either
a touch screen or controls around the screen - both of which I use at
present. It was also easy to route the cable neatly to it. There was
never any need to look at the control - the hand quickly learns the
functions.

John Galloway


At 16:38 15 September 2008, Udo Rumpf wrote:
I disagree strongly, the controls should be clustered around the screen.
The remote is just an other piece of hardware attached to a wire flying
around the cockpit. Naturally I can see and understand your bias.
There are products that function much closer to my way of thinking and I
am not bias. See http://www.triadis.ch
Udo

I find the ClearNav's keypad to be very easy to use. Also, the
ClearNav
is
very much designed with "simple user-interface" as a key design
consideration. I think it succeeds at that goal superbly. I predict
that

there will be many more ClearNav units sold than "Ultimate" systems.
Also,
NK is a first class company that will be creating many very nice
soaring

instruments in the near future and they (and I) will support the
ClearNav

extremely well. But I'm biased because I sell, support and am writing
the

I predict the ultimate interface will be voice control not keypads or
trackballs. Voice already works on cellphones and in cars. With more
processing power will work fine in gliders.

I can also predict that the most common installation in 5 years will be an
open system using off the shelf hardware running soaring specific software
of the user's choice - just like the PDA systems we now use. The difference
will be bigger, more readable screens and more processing power running more
sophisticated software.

LED backlight LCD monitors are already available in the 1500 - 2000 nit
brightness range which makes them very readable in direct sunlight. These
are likely to completely replace the CCFL backlights now common due to their
comparatively low power requirements. 8" OLED screens are due 'soon' which
will do a better job on even less power. "Electronic Paper" displays use
almost no power and are as readable as a newspaper in direct sunlight but
their response time needs to improve by 2 - 3 times. I predict a very
usable 8" screen will cost less than $300.

VIA Pico ITX and Intel Atom motherboards already offer plenty of processing
power in matchbox sizes. The price of SSD mass storage is in free fall.
Imagine a desktop PC shrunk to matchbox size running on a couple of LiFePo4
D batteries.

Its the classic Mac vs PC vs Linux debate. There will be a minority which
doesn't like to fiddle with configurations and will buy closed systems. The
rest of us will buy open systems because they are cheaper, give us a wider
choice and can be updated more easily.

I run free software on a $100 used PDA. My only gripe is that the screen is
too small and dim. My scheme is to use a thin screen over a rectangular
panel of old round instruments with the screen hinged at the top. If the
computer goes kaput, I'd just lift the screen and use the old instruments
hidden behind it.





"Udo Rumpf" wrote in message
...
I disagree strongly, the controls should be clustered around the screen.
The remote is just an other piece of hardware attached to a wire flying
around the cockpit. Naturally I can see and understand your bias.
There are products that function much closer to my way of thinking and I
am not bias. See http://www.triadis.ch
Udo

I find the ClearNav's keypad to be very easy to use. Also, the
ClearNav
is
very much designed with "simple user-interface" as a key design
consideration. I think it succeeds at that goal superbly. I predict
that

there will be many more ClearNav units sold than "Ultimate" systems.
Also,
NK is a first class company that will be creating many very nice soaring

instruments in the near future and they (and I) will support the ClearNav

extremely well. But I'm biased because I sell, support and am writing
the

As far as I can see the Triadis is an open "off the shelf components" based product.
It has a hardware specific version of XCsoar loaded on it, to use the control buttons. However it is opensource software
, which is by definition user customisable. About as good as it gets.

Regrettably I understand it will not fit in many panels.

Bruce

Bill Daniels wrote:
I predict the ultimate interface will be voice control not keypads or
trackballs. Voice already works on cellphones and in cars. With more
processing power will work fine in gliders.

I can also predict that the most common installation in 5 years will be an
open system using off the shelf hardware running soaring specific software
of the user's choice - just like the PDA systems we now use. The difference
will be bigger, more readable screens and more processing power running more
sophisticated software.

LED backlight LCD monitors are already available in the 1500 - 2000 nit
brightness range which makes them very readable in direct sunlight. These
are likely to completely replace the CCFL backlights now common due to their
comparatively low power requirements. 8" OLED screens are due 'soon' which
will do a better job on even less power. "Electronic Paper" displays use
almost no power and are as readable as a newspaper in direct sunlight but
their response time needs to improve by 2 - 3 times. I predict a very
usable 8" screen will cost less than $300.

VIA Pico ITX and Intel Atom motherboards already offer plenty of processing
power in matchbox sizes. The price of SSD mass storage is in free fall.
Imagine a desktop PC shrunk to matchbox size running on a couple of LiFePo4
D batteries.

Its the classic Mac vs PC vs Linux debate. There will be a minority which
doesn't like to fiddle with configurations and will buy closed systems. The
rest of us will buy open systems because they are cheaper, give us a wider
choice and can be updated more easily.

I run free software on a $100 used PDA. My only gripe is that the screen is
too small and dim. My scheme is to use a thin screen over a rectangular
panel of old round instruments with the screen hinged at the top. If the
computer goes kaput, I'd just lift the screen and use the old instruments
hidden behind it.





"Udo Rumpf" wrote in message
...
I disagree strongly, the controls should be clustered around the screen.
The remote is just an other piece of hardware attached to a wire flying
around the cockpit. Naturally I can see and understand your bias.
There are products that function much closer to my way of thinking and I
am not bias. See http://www.triadis.ch
Udo

I find the ClearNav's keypad to be very easy to use. Also, the
ClearNav
is
very much designed with "simple user-interface" as a key design
consideration. I think it succeeds at that goal superbly. I predict
that
there will be many more ClearNav units sold than "Ultimate" systems.
Also,
NK is a first class company that will be creating many very nice soaring
instruments in the near future and they (and I) will support the ClearNav
extremely well. But I'm biased because I sell, support and am writing
the