Tie Down Straps - Help Needed

On Sep 19, 6:05*pm, wrote:
On Sep 19, 5:38*pm, sisu1a wrote:

On Sep 19, 2:47*pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote: I one of them was Paul Hansen's Sisu 1A in California the other was a
Schweizer in Texas - Houston I think. *Anyway there are dozens more stories
of stakes pulling out leading to the distruction of gliders in the history
of gliding.

I don't think it's a matter of mechanical engineering, it's soil
engineering. *Stakes will hold in turf or damp soil held together by strong
roots. *The dry sand and gravel of western deserts just won't hold a stake
no matter how cleverly it's designed. *Even half axle shafts driven in with
a sledge hammer have pulled out. *The act of driving in the stake loosens
the soil enough to prevent the stake(s) from holding making the whole

I agree with Bill. *I did a test with the claw attached to my trailer
jack and the wheel on a scale. *The claw pulled out of compacted
decomposed granite in my driveway at about 250 lbs, came completetly
out at 300, but this was aided by weed stop fabric under the DG. *The
soil was damp to a great depth due the the Socal rains in January this
year, but not soggy. *I doubt that dry, uncompacted sand would do
better.

I have the claw in my Cirrus as an emegency tie down only, I think it
is a good product for that application.

For permanent tie downs nothing like a tire buried with a chain around
it. *One the sand is watered down, it is not goining anywhere.

Mike Malis.

Ditto. I think the claw is a good option as an landout or similar
situation. I've tried a few screw in types and you just cant get them
into either the hard compacted dirt or rocky soils in many locations.
The best place for the glider to be is inside it's box or a hangar.
Otherwise get a real tie down installed, the claw and screw-ins are
all completely inappropriate for permanent tie downs. It is not that
hard to dig a hole, sink some anchors and fill with concrete.

Darryl

On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 15:47:09 -0600, "Bill Daniels"
bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
[snip]

BTW, trenching tools have dug some pretty deep holes. I've been sold by
Marines that it's truly amazing how quick and deep you can dig when being
shot at.

And the dirt flying in the air tends to distract the enemy's aim...;-)

rj

"Paul Remde" wrote in message
news:5sUAk.350834$yE1.314870@attbi_s21...
Hi Bill,

That is a very strong accusation against the CLAW. Can you please give
more information about the circumstances of the 2 failures?

There was a Husky aircraft lost last year while tied out using the Claw. The
Claw's casting failed, IIRC. However, there was some question as to whether
a nearby aircraft's tie down failed first, hitting the Husky. Both aircraft
totaled.

bumper
zz
Minden

I have to admit I have been pretty dubious about how effective the
Claw is as a tie down.
I did purchase a set this year and am still pretty suspect of them.
Soil type and condition greatly affect how effective they are. This
summer we drove one into some hard packed gravel. The next day we
pulled it out by hand. Probably less that 50lbs straight up. The 12"
stakes simply aren't enough in many conditions. I have fabricated some
24" stakes for them and feel much more comfortable with the longer
stakes. My stakes are mild steel which isn't the best as the do bend
in rocky soil but it takes a lot more effort to remove them. I will
probably look into finding a hardened steel for future stakes.

Brian
HP16T

If you do a Google search on mobile home anchors, you'll find a lot of
reasonably priced options like this:

http://www.randgsupply.com/Warehouse...anchorkits.htm

There are also rods for anchoring in rocks etc. It's only when it's
advertised for aircraft that it gets expensive . . .

bumper
zz
Minden
"Brian" wrote in message
...
I have to admit I have been pretty dubious about how effective the
Claw is as a tie down.
I did purchase a set this year and am still pretty suspect of them.
Soil type and condition greatly affect how effective they are. This
summer we drove one into some hard packed gravel. The next day we
pulled it out by hand. Probably less that 50lbs straight up. The 12"
stakes simply aren't enough in many conditions. I have fabricated some
24" stakes for them and feel much more comfortable with the longer
stakes. My stakes are mild steel which isn't the best as the do bend
in rocky soil but it takes a lot more effort to remove them. I will
probably look into finding a hardened steel for future stakes.

Brian
HP16T

A very cheap solution that I use is to buy 2 18" long 2x2 steel angle
iron. Cut 45 degree edges at one end to make a point (the metal
supplier that you buy the angle from can do this). Drill a 0.5" at the
other end. Drive the angles into the ground at a 45 degree angle with
a sledge hammer at a place where the tie down rope will be at right
angles to the stake. Total cost: $15-20, not including the sledge.

You need as much surface area as possible for maximum hold strength.
Consequently I don't favor any kind of tie-down that looks like a tent
stake or an over-sized nail. It is important that the tie-down rope be
at right angles, or as close to it as possible, to maximize this
surface area. I also got a couple of cheap, small plastic buckets to
put over the tie-down so I wouldn't stub my toes or drop a wing on
them.

If you want a permanent high-strength tie-down get 2 or 3 used tires,
some cable or chain, and a shovel. Attach the chain to each tire and
bury the tire as deep as you can. The tires are free, the chain about
$1 a foot, and you probably already have a shovel.

Tom Seim

On Sep 19, 8:31*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Sep 19, 6:05*pm, wrote:



On Sep 19, 5:38*pm, sisu1a wrote:

On Sep 19, 2:47*pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote: I one of them was Paul Hansen's Sisu 1A in California the other was a
Schweizer in Texas - Houston I think. *Anyway there are dozens more stories
of stakes pulling out leading to the distruction of gliders in the history
of gliding.

I don't think it's a matter of mechanical engineering, it's soil
engineering. *Stakes will hold in turf or damp soil held together by strong
roots. *The dry sand and gravel of western deserts just won't hold a stake
no matter how cleverly it's designed. *Even half axle shafts driven in with
a sledge hammer have pulled out. *The act of driving in the stake loosens
the soil enough to prevent the stake(s) from holding making the whole

I agree with Bill. *I did a test with the claw attached to my trailer
jack and the wheel on a scale. *The claw pulled out of compacted
decomposed granite in my driveway at about 250 lbs, came completetly
out at 300, but this was aided by weed stop fabric under the DG. *The
soil was damp to a great depth due the the Socal rains in January this
year, but not soggy. *I doubt that dry, uncompacted sand would do
better.

I have the claw in my Cirrus as an emegency tie down only, I think it
is a good product for that application.

For permanent tie downs nothing like a tire buried with a chain around
it. *One the sand is watered down, it is not goining anywhere.

Mike Malis.

Ditto. I think the claw is a good option as an landout or similar
situation. I've tried a few screw in types and you just cant get them
into either the hard compacted dirt or rocky soils in many locations.
The best place for the glider to be is inside it's box or a hangar.
Otherwise get a real tie down installed, the claw and screw-ins are
all completely inappropriate for permanent tie downs. It is not that
hard to dig a hole, sink some anchors and fill with concrete.

Same here. I keep a claw in each aircraft I fly (powered and glider)
because it's the best thing I've found out there. The kit is a bit
heavy, but that's fine by me because it' not cheap and will do the job
for a few days of tie-down.

Jeremy

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the link, but I can't seem to find a simple strap with a metal
cam lock buckle on that page. I don't want any hooks or ratchets. Maybe
I'm not looking in the right part of the site.

Paul Remde

"5Z" wrote in message
...
On Sep 19, 12:57 pm, brianDG303 wrote:
I decided to use flyties (http://www.flyties.com/).

I've been using a similar product for over 20 years. Got it from
Australia.

The stakes are nylon and have held up amazingly well, sometimes
twisting a bit to get into rocky soil, but so far, never broke one. I
would guess I've used it 10 - 15 times, mostly for overnight tiedown
in benign conditions, but a few times I've had to secure the glider in
gusty conditions while waiting for my crew.

As for straps, I clicked on an ad for "CAM Buckle Straps":
http://www.kingroyusa.com/cargo-cont...FQq4sgodLxW8ew

that showed up in my Google sidebar. Pretty nice bulk pricing at less
than $10 per strap & buckle.

-Tom

Try http://www.screwits.com Small, light and they work !

The site has a comparison of all the tie downs available




wrote:
A very cheap solution that I use is to buy 2 18" long 2x2 steel angle
iron. Cut 45 degree edges at one end to make a point (the metal
supplier that you buy the angle from can do this). Drill a 0.5" at the
other end. Drive the angles into the ground at a 45 degree angle with
a sledge hammer at a place where the tie down rope will be at right
angles to the stake. Total cost: $15-20, not including the sledge.

You need as much surface area as possible for maximum hold strength.
Consequently I don't favor any kind of tie-down that looks like a tent
stake or an over-sized nail. It is important that the tie-down rope be
at right angles, or as close to it as possible, to maximize this
surface area. I also got a couple of cheap, small plastic buckets to
put over the tie-down so I wouldn't stub my toes or drop a wing on
them.

If you want a permanent high-strength tie-down get 2 or 3 used tires,
some cable or chain, and a shovel. Attach the chain to each tire and
bury the tire as deep as you can. The tires are free, the chain about
$1 a foot, and you probably already have a shovel.

Tom Seim

On Sep 23, 4:16*am, user wrote:
Tryhttp://www.screwits.com*Small, light and they work !

The site has a comparison of all the tie downs available

Hmmm, that's some comparison! Glad they definitively settled that one.
According to their ultra scientific study (based on the risk of
accidentally striking your wing while installing...) they have
positively determined once and for all that their own system THEY sell
is indeed actually "The Ultimate Aircraft Tiedown System". Good thing
their team of crack scientists conducted such a thorough test of the
parameters that really matter to pilots...

Seriously, I wish I could find the photos Sporty's took of a large
backhoe fitted with a tensiometer actually testing all the major
available tiedowns to failure under the same conditions. The screw
type and hockey puck thingies that (cheap) pilots are trying
desperately to convince themselves can outperform the Claw (some of
which are just as expensive), failed miserably LONG before the Claw
anchors pulled out. Again, the Claw is substitute for permanent
anchors, however there simply is not a portable solution that
outperforms them for most situations (and by portable I mean no sledge
hammers, no pipe wrenches, no parts longer than a foot, 10lbs, ie
something you would actually carry in your ship) BTW, although they
have spikes, that is the only system that does not rely on friction in
the Z axis-hence the 10" long spikes. The forces are directed inwards
at ~45deg in an equidistant triangle that is gripping the earth
between the spikes. The harder you pull the harder they grab (until
failure of course). The only situation they suck in is in loose gravel/
sand, and that's where the dittybag deal really shines.

Actually I like when guys buy those screw types, as it is actually
quite entertaining to watch people STRUGGLE to get them in
(unfortunately they plane does not have to struggle much to pull them
back out). The Claw gos in incredibly easy and hold far more then the
competition. It's your plane though, so buy whatever you want. If your
plane is parked next to mine though, don't be offended if you awake
and see a Claw anchor or 2 added to your setup that almost let go in
the middle of the night (happened several times already...). It's also
nice not to have tripping hazards extending beyond the wing, not to
mention having nothing to impale your wing/tire protruding above the
ground, but to each their own.

I think that one should carry both the Claw AND the dittybag system
that Bill pioneered for a truly comprehensive and portable X/C set.
That way your bases are covered whether you land on very loose or very
hard ground, and one could use BOTH if really in trouble. (The Claw
goes in fast enough to secure it in the wind, which would buy the time
needed to fill the dittys)

BTW, getting back to the OP, I for one am not a big fan of cam straps.
The camstraps I have used in the past for securing loads on the road
required re-cinching all too often (all brands I tried...). I stick w/
the ratchet types if using straps, but for going light/portable I have
a little bit of 8mm spectra that fits the bill quite nicely. I trust
my knots FAR more than cam buckles, but maybe I am just biased on that
one. I don't like S-hooks either though, so I cut those off my straps
and replace them w/stainless screw type D-shackles.

-Paul