Airlines Cut Minimum Pilot Experience to 500 hours and Below

On Nov 26, 11:34 am, Larry Dighera wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 09:50:24 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
wrote in
:

In short, when a union is
involved you do not have a free market (the employeer has his hands
tied and his nuts in a vice).

And without a union, employees are in a similar situation.

Again that is the myth that labor tries to put out there. However, it
is based on the assumed belief that labor has no intrinsic market
value, only the value that organized labor can get for it. In truth
companies pay lots of money to recruiters and HR departments to seek
out employees. In truth the majority of American's do not work under a
collective bargaining unit but still are paid above minimum wage. The
reason is that there is a market for their labor and employers must
either pay it or do without. The fear of "the sky is falling" that
oraganized labor has put out there hasn't happened. In most cases non-
union employees make more than organized employees. The only one
making money off the unions are the fat cats that run the unions.

-Robert

On Nov 26, 11:38 am, Larry Dighera wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:06:17 -0800, "Gatt"
wrote in :

Meanwhile, the cream of the crop will go fly for El Al of Lufthansa, and UAL
scrounges around hiring inexperienced pilots.

Makes perfect sense.

Isn't deregulation grand? :-)

Yep, now families and individuals can fly. Back in the 70's only
companies could afford to fly. Even with inflasion at trip that used
to cost $1500 can be found for under $200. Are you willing to pay an
extra $1300 per seat to ensure the pilot is paid more than he's
willing to work for?

-Robert

Well obviously first they are going to lower the number of hours required.
Hey, at 500 they still have some room to lower them further.

Where they will first hear about the problem is when the captains start
bitching about having to fly all the legs because the 1st officer can't even
taxi without running into the grass.

Obviously just for jokes. In truth many of the world's safest airlines
hire zero hour pilots right out of school all the time. In truth
internal training is often better than the hours someone would get
being a CFI in a 172.

-Robert

Gatt wrote:

I'm curious as to why the airline pilots haven't all gone on strike to
demand better pay. Clearly, they can't be easily replaced or the airlines
wouldn't be scraping the bottom of the barrel for new hires. I learned
about supply/demand in Economics 101 but I'm sure the airline executives
know exactly what they're doing.


Right now they're not quite scraping the bottom of the barrel. The
current market for new regional FOs is about what it was during the last boom
period in the late 90s (when many also lowered the minimum hrs. to 500).
Rather than raising salaries, the airlines can just lower the experience
requirements to tap a reserve of potential recruits that wouldn't have
previously applied.

Supply and demand really does work. Previously, the regionals ate up the
supply of 800 hr. potential hires, and just lowered the requirements to
increase the supply to meet the demand. Granted, there is a limit to how
low they can go, but the 500 hr. minimum has been used before, so it'll
probably stay until the market changes.

I'm not so sure that upping the pay would make a great difference.
Assuming that they raised the starting pay 50% (a pretty hefty increase,
percentagewise), how many more qualified applicants would jump out of the
woodwork to fly for 30K/yr. instead of 20K/yr. My guess is :not many.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums...ation/200711/1

On Nov 26, 1:49 pm, "Robert M. Gary" wrote:

Obviously just for jokes. In truth many of the world's safest airlines
hire zero hour pilots right out of school all the time. In truth
internal training is often better than the hours someone would get
being a CFI in a 172.

Robert, this is as far off as your bankrupcy comments. It is called Ab-
Inito and most of the airlines who do this has terrible safety
records.
-Robert

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
news:c84afa29-03c9-46c6-aea8-

Yep, now families and individuals can fly. Back in the 70's only
companies could afford to fly. Even with inflasion at trip that used
to cost $1500 can be found for under $200. Are you willing to pay an
extra $1300 per seat to ensure the pilot is paid more than he's
willing to work for?


Yeah, if he's fully-qualified. Seems glaringly freakin' obvious to me.
Otherwise, you could hire high school dropouts or ex-convicts to do it for
less.

"Hi. I'm not type-rated and don't have a driver's license or live in the
US, but I've logged -thousands- of hours on MSFS-X! I'll work for $12.50
per flight hour! Why would you pay pilots more than they're willing to work
for?"

The same could be said for business executives. Although I suppose Carly
Fiorina was WORTH all that money to HP.

-c

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
news:a3d92f7a-fd7f-4bcb-bcc7-


And without a union, employees are in a similar situation.

Again that is the myth that labor tries to put out there.

Just think, if all those Chinese coolies had organized labor, there'd still
be no Union Pacific.

-c

"JGalban via AviationKB.com" u32749@uwe wrote in message
news:7bce8f5bb74bf@uwe...

Rather than raising salaries, the airlines can just lower the experience
requirements to tap a reserve of potential recruits that wouldn't have
previously applied.

Try that crap with their executive salaries and see how they howl.

I'm not so sure that upping the pay would make a great difference.

Where are all the qualified pilots going these days? Overseas? Why was
that, again?

Assuming that they raised the starting pay 50% (a pretty hefty increase,
percentagewise), how many more qualified applicants would jump out of the
woodwork to fly for 30K/yr. instead of 20K/yr.

*hand raised*

-c

On Nov 26, 1:56 pm, "JGalban via AviationKB.com" u32749@uwe wrote:
Gatt wrote:


Right now they're not quite scraping the bottom of the barrel. The
current market for new regional FOs is about what it was during the last boom
period in the late 90s (when many also lowered the minimum hrs. to 500).
Rather than raising salaries, the airlines can just lower the experience
requirements to tap a reserve of potential recruits that wouldn't have
previously applied.

Not even close! During the last boom the A list commuters never got
below the ATP. Another thing you are ignoring is that at these wages,
commuters (And Majors) are not retaining people. NASA just did some
work on this and found out that 20% of pilots under 40 were planning
to leave the industry over pay and working conditions.


Supply and demand really does work. Previously, the regionals ate up the
supply of 800 hr. potential hires, and just lowered the requirements to
increase the supply to meet the demand. Granted, there is a limit to how
low they can go, but the 500 hr. minimum has been used before, so it'll
probably stay until the market changes.

Way too simplistic. At some point they will run out of dedicated
profesionals who are willing to do the job with current conditions.


I'm not so sure that upping the pay would make a great difference.
Assuming that they raised the starting pay 50% (a pretty hefty increase,
percentagewise), how many more qualified applicants would jump out of the
woodwork to fly for 30K/yr. instead of 20K/yr. My guess is :not many.

It will take more than $$$$, thats for sure. I think the kids starting
out need to see marked improvement in working conditions, pay and job
security, or they will just go do something more meaningful for a
living.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via AviationKB.comhttp://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/aviation/200711/1

F. Baum wrote:
On Nov 26, 1:49 pm, "Robert M. Gary" wrote:

Obviously just for jokes. In truth many of the world's safest
airlines hire zero hour pilots right out of school all the time. In
truth internal training is often better than the hours someone would
get being a CFI in a 172.

Robert, this is as far off as your bankrupcy comments. It is called
Ab- Inito and most of the airlines who do this has terrible safety
records.

Lufthansa's safety record is not so bad....

regards,
Friedrich