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#41
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Ethanol Powered Aircraft
On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:50:17 -0700, Bret Ludwig wrote:
the very long run, nukeplants may be built under the sea, in huge subterranean underwater canyons with a closed power cycle, and the wastes glassified and buried. In the shorter run...who knows? I have a hard time imagining anything less likely. This sounds like a "World of Tomorrow" movie clip made during the 50's. We all know how much we love our flying cars and cities in the skies! Greg |
#42
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Ethanol Powered Aircraft
You fly a balloon -- in WINTER?
BRRRRRRR! Well, they do carry a really big heater with 'em... and once aloft, there is no wind. "It's a dry cold..." -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" |
#43
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Ethanol Powered Aircraft
On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:33:50 -0500, James Robinson wrote:
"Jay Honeck" wrote: Aside from the obvious stupidity of using more energy to make ethanol than it actually produces, There is a certain amount of healthy debate on that issue. A couple of professors from Cornell and Berkeley have been making that argument, but the Dept. of Energy has come out with the "definitive" analysis that concludes you get something like 25 or 30% more energy out, when corn is used as the base. A higher level of return is projected for other sources, like switchgrass. I seriously question their results. Pretty much every other study shows, with current technology, that's pretty much impossible. On top of that, countries which are currently using agro to produce eneregy have long since moved from crappy corn to crops that make more sense: sugar cane, sugar beats, and hemp. Even with these crops, obtaining a return was difficult. Beyond that, every study I've read which indicated a return from corn were torn to bits by other papers, rightfully so, because they ignored huge segments of the process which chewed up energy to obtain the energy from corn. I have to agree, trying to obtain energy from corn is stupid when far better crops readily exist. Trying to make it work with corn only translates into higher prices at the end of the day. Greg |
#44
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Ethanol Powered Aircraft
I have to agree, trying to obtain energy from corn is stupid when far
better crops readily exist. Trying to make it work with corn only translates into higher prices at the end of the day. .... which is probably the =real= agenda. Jose -- The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
#45
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#46
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Ethanol Powered Aircraft
On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 15:40:25 GMT, Larry Dighera
wrote: Perhaps 23,437.5 square miles, or an area 153 miles on a side, is easier to visualize. :-) In other words, a medium sized Texas ranch... |
#47
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Ethanol Powered Aircraft
"Bret Ludwig" wrote in message ups.com... LNG, as used in the Beech system (Beech Aircraft really did the pioneering work on LNG, of course it went nowhere....) was stored at very low temperature at approximately atmospheric pressure in a dewar type insulated tank. It's important to understand that methane-natural gas- is an incondensible gas for all intents and purposes, like oxygen and nitrogen but unlike propane, nitrous oxide, carbon dioxide, ammonia which can be stored at human-habitable ambient temperatures at pressures feasible for storage tanks. Methane and propane can be burned in an IC engine in similar fashion once they are a gas, but at very different fuel-air mixtures. Methane is approximately 108 octane and propane is in the 103-106 range depending on exactly what's in it (LP motor fuel is nothing like reagent grade and contains methane, butane, methanol, and lots of other junk). LNG would be practical but the cost of distribution would be high and the fuel system is fairly complex, at least in the Beech system. CNG has no range to speak of. LPG is very practical for all sort of ground vehicles and has been done successfully in helicopters, but large volume storage in fixed wing aircraft is problematic. A fixed wing aircraft designed around a fuselage LP tank as a stressed member might make some sense. For those of you who have not yet decided that this guy Ludwig is a dufus and / or a troll.... natural gas is not methane. Although methane makes up approximately 96% of the local natural gas here, there are many other constituents. Several of the products that he says are stored at human habitable temperatures... well lets just say that he is wrong at least on the ones that I am most familiar with. For instance, ammonia is stored at temperatures around -28 degrees f. As a matter of fact, nitrogen, carbon dioxide, and ammonia are all cryogenically stored. BTW, we condense methane at -282 degrees f. at my work place 24 hours a day as a step in recovery hydrogen for reuse. Joe Schneider N8437R ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
#48
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Ethanol Powered Aircraft
For those of you who have not yet decided that this guy Ludwig is a dufus and / or a troll.... natural gas is not methane. Although methane makes up approximately 96% of the local natural gas here, there are many other constituents. 96% is "most", most of the time. Where I'm from. Several of the products that he says are stored at human habitable temperatures... well lets just say that he is wrong at least on the ones that I am most familiar with. For instance, ammonia is stored at temperatures around -28 degrees f. As a matter of fact, nitrogen, carbon dioxide, and ammonia are all cryogenically stored. Nitrogen must be cryogenic to be in liquid form. CO2 and NH3 are stored in regular steel tanks and when both gas and liquid are in the tank, and the tank is allowed to sit with no flow, the tank assumes ambient temperature (or higher in the sun) and the pressure inside is a direct function of the product's temperature. Same with Freon (most kinds), propane, etc. Nitrogen, oxygen, hydrogen, helium, are a liquid at earth temperatures only under freakish pressures. There is said to be solid methane at the bottom of the ocean in certain places but what is the absolute pressure at those depths? About ten thousand psi is the practical limit for pressure vessels. That's why these gases are transported cryogenically or as _gases_ in the 2-3000 psi welding type cylinders. |
#49
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Ethanol Powered Aircraft
ktbr wrote: oh...So... since YOU don't fly any of these aircraft, the fuel they use should banned. And you could care less whether they fly or not... Who cares if most flight schools use airplanes that burn this fuel. You are knee-jerkingly ignorant of the facts and that is a sad comentary. Even given a unlimited fuel supply they will be out of the air well within my lifetime unless highly modified or someone starts making R-3350 Turbocompound and RR Merlin parts again including cases, banks and cranks. The Connies could now be converted to turboprop in the stock nacelle and with the stock blades (the hub, or at least the pitch mechanism, would need changing depending on whether a single or double shaft engine were used) but a turbine Mustang just isn't a Mustang and Allisons are in the same boat. Running them on straight ethanol would be the easy mod. Besides, I thought we were done "aggrandizing WWII"......((ROTFLMAO)). |
#50
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Grumman-581 wrote: On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 15:40:25 GMT, Larry Dighera wrote: Perhaps 23,437.5 square miles, or an area 153 miles on a side, is easier to visualize. :-) In other words, a medium sized Texas ranch... The point is, it's a short term fix anyway. If the oil gets so scarce a small quantity is needed truly at any cost, then get it there. Not now. Let oil go high enough to get alternatives capitalized, with a price floor if necessary, lest the Saudis pull the rug out from under the billion dollar investments needed. |
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