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The Most Expensive Ironing Boards in the World...



 
 
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  #51  
Old October 7th 06, 04:00 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.owning
Jay Honeck
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Posts: 3,573
Default The Most Expensive Ironing Boards in the World...

Did you bring the old one back? If fixable, a spare never hurts...

Yep -- but my A&P wants it for the core value. That was part of the
price he charged for the new one.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

  #52  
Old October 7th 06, 04:37 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Jose[_1_]
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Default The Most Expensive Ironing Boards in the World...

Sorry Larry and Jose, but there's at least one case which is similar in
facts to that which transpired between Jay and his friend and the FAA lost
the case on appeal:

http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/alj/O_n_O/do...ation/4791.PDF


The fact that it had to be appealed in the first place makes my point.
Since each case is always different, the FAA can convict the next pilot
(since it "interprets" its own rules, and we now know how it will
attempt to do so), and it will be up to that pilot to appeal too. Maybe
he'll win, maybe not. He will definately pay in time and trouble, and
probably money unless his lawyers work for free.

It should never have come up in the first place. What we need is a way
to appeal a case and trounce the FAA at the same time, so they never do
something like that again.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #53  
Old October 7th 06, 04:42 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Jose[_1_]
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Default The Most Expensive Ironing Boards in the World...

but the
flight time he was logging was found (or contended, I'm not entirely sure)
to be compensation, because he could use the time for an additional rating.
[...]
This is a good example of how ridiculous the rules are


More to the point, this isn't even in the rules. The FAA made it up out
of whole cloth.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #54  
Old October 7th 06, 05:02 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Jose[_1_]
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Default The Most Expensive Ironing Boards in the World...

Since when is it a violation of FAR to come pick up a stranded friend? Or
deliver a needed part for a friend?

Ever since they came up with the stupid "pro-rata" rule, and the
"interpretation" (which I consider erzats rulemaking) that "holding out"
equals "commercial" (i.e. telling your college dorm you're open to
flying people) and "logging time" is "compensation.


who has been "convicted" of this?


I don't know. The database has recently been posted. It may be that
nobody has been convicted of this exact thing. However, the FAA has
made it clear to me on several occasions that this very thing would be a
violation and that were they to get wind of it they would prosecute with
vigor.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #55  
Old October 7th 06, 05:45 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Jim Logajan
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Default The Most Expensive Ironing Boards in the World...

Jose wrote:
Sorry Larry and Jose, but there's at least one case which is similar
in facts to that which transpired between Jay and his friend and the
FAA lost the case on appeal:

http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/alj/O_n_O/do...ation/4791.PDF


The fact that it had to be appealed in the first place makes my point.
Since each case is always different, the FAA can convict the next
pilot (since it "interprets" its own rules, and we now know how it
will attempt to do so), and it will be up to that pilot to appeal too.
Maybe he'll win, maybe not. He will definately pay in time and
trouble, and probably money unless his lawyers work for free.


Just FYI: the "Equal Access to Justice Act" (EAJA)[1] provides an
(admittedly remote) opportunity for a pilot in certain circumstances to
recover legal costs from the government when it brings a case that is not
"reasonable in law and fact." So not all hope is lost. Some individuals
have recovered costs from the government via this mechanism; search for
either EAJA or Equal Access to Justice Act in the "Words and Phrases" field
of this link:
http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/query.asp

It should never have come up in the first place. What we need is a
way to appeal a case and trounce the FAA at the same time, so they
never do something like that again.


No argument! I'm open to suggestions.

[1] http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...w/dsp_EAJA.pdf
  #56  
Old October 7th 06, 05:46 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Peter Duniho
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Default The Most Expensive Ironing Boards in the World...

"LWG" wrote in message
. ..
I specifically pointed out the distinction that here, the pilot was
providing his own airplane at his own expense.


My inference from that is that you are confirming that the towing case
you're referring to involved no direct costs to the pilot. That's a very
important difference, and prevents the case from being relevant to my
comments at all.

I was just trying to tell
you that in some cases, the FAA has interpreted the logging of time as
compensation in and of itself.


I am already quite aware of that, thank you. I am just trying to tell YOU
that in those cases, the logging in and of itself is not compensation. It's
the logging paid for by someone else.

I think that's just nuts, and subject to all
manner of abuse. I didn't say that the tow pilot case was controlling,
just
that it made me have some reservations about concluding there was no
possibility of prosecution simply because no money was received by the
pilot.


I never once said that "there was no possibility of prosecution SIMPLY
BECAUSE [emphasis mine] no money was received by the pilot".

The argument that someone, somewhere is paying money to someone else
is a red herring, to me.


You don't fully understand the FAA's position then.

In the soaring operation I was involved in, other
than yelling out the altitude of the last release, the tow pilot had
nothing
to do with invoicing, billing or collecting a dime from anyone.


The tow pilot's involvement in billing, etc. is irrelevant.

If the
simple acquisition of time is compensation, then any other transaction is
not necessary for a violation.


You are mixing up two different issues. One is the acquisition of flight
time at no cost to the pilot. The other is acting as PIC on a flight taking
place "for hire".

I have seen my share of occupations and professions, and I have never seen
anything that approaches the arbitrariness and malevolence, without the
right of meaningful appeal, that is in aviation.


And? How does that relate to the actual rules?

I don't see how that tow pilot was "getting something for nothing."


Well, that depends on the situation. So far, you've passed on two
opportunities to actually explain the details of the situation. But the
implication you've given so far is that the tow pilot was not paying for the
costs of operating the airplane. Unless you think that flying is nothing,
he got something (that is, the flying itself) for nothing.

Whether you agree with it or not, the FAA's position on that is very clear.
Flight time is in and of itself compensation.

Pete


  #57  
Old October 7th 06, 06:03 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Jim Logajan
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Default The Most Expensive Ironing Boards in the World...

"LWG" wrote:
I recall a case with a tow plane pilot who was prosecuted
for not having his commercial.


That's unlikely because 61.113(g) specifically exempts qualified tow plane
pilots holding only private pilot privileges from the "no compensation"
rule of 61.113(a).
  #58  
Old October 7th 06, 06:05 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.owning
JJS
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Posts: 41
Default The Most Expensive Ironing Boards in the World...


"Jay Honeck" wrote in message oups.com...
Hope your oil leak problem is finally resolved! Sounds like you're living
right, everything worked out well.


If that pesky, nagging, maddening, un-traceable little oil leak is
finally fixed, I will kiss Atlas' spinner right on the lips, and all
will be forgiven. I've wasted more hours trying to figure out where
that drip was coming from than you can imagine.

The oil cooler leaked right at a seam between two metal segments, which
made seeing the leak impossible without a mirror. And before it let go
enough to actually produce a series of active drips, it just looked
oily like everything else in that general area.

I'm just really, REALLY glad that it didn't "let go" more than it did.
Large parts of Missouri between Iowa City and Columbia are not great
for forced landings...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"



Hi Jay,
I had the same thing happen to me in 1999 on the way to Oshkosh. I noticed oil on the wing while in flight and
quickly looked at the oil pressure and temperature. We were very close to our first fuel stop so we landed as
planned and when I got out I found the same situation you described. Only a few quarts of oil remained in the
engine. Another cooler was rounded up from a nearby airport and we went on our merry way a few hours later. When I
got to Osh, I looked up the Pacific Oil Coolers, Inc. booth and talked to them about getting my old cooler repaired.
They cautioned me about the unknown origin of the installed oil cooler and suggested that since it was used, and if
it hadn't been cleaned thoroughly, it might have contained some congealed oil and debris from the aircraft from
whence it came. That gunk could be circulating in my engine. Needless to say, that concerned me. I checked up on
Pacific and found several good references. They had a good reputation. When I got home, I sent my leaking cooler to
them and they repaired, cleaned, and yellow tagged it. I pulled the other cooler and reinstalled the yellow tagged
unit.

If the cooler you installed was used and hadn't been cleaned, (and I don't mean flushed with solvent), then I
recommend you consider doing it.

Here's a link to their website and procedu

http://www.oilcoolers.com/howwell.htm

Joe Schneider
Cherokee 8437R



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  #59  
Old October 7th 06, 06:27 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Jose[_1_]
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Posts: 1,632
Default The Most Expensive Ironing Boards in the World...

Unless you think that flying is nothing,
he got something (that is, the flying itself) for nothing.

Whether you agree with it or not, the FAA's position on that is very clear.
Flight time is in and of itself compensation.


.... and this can be extended to flight training too. Suppose I pay for
your instrument rating... plane, instructor, everything. Is that ok?
You are getting free flight time, free instruction, logged time that can
be (and in fact will be) used for an additional rating.

According to the FAA's position, this would be not ok, unless I missed
something very subtle.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #60  
Old October 7th 06, 07:46 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Grumman-581[_3_]
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Posts: 262
Default The Most Expensive Ironing Boards in the World...

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
Why? Would you prefer that Mr. Honeck remain ignorant of the
regulations?


The regulation is stupid... I shouldn't need a commercial drivers license if
a friend wants me to pick up something and take it across town for them with
the understanding that they'll pay my costs... Same thing should apply for
aircraft...

It is my understanding, that all it takes to begin a rule change is a
letter to the FAA. Perhaps the AOPA might take up the cause. Or
perhaps we newsgroup participants could draft a more reasonably worded
regulation, and submit it to the FAA.


Replace it with something like, "Friends help friends. Friends sometimes
even reimburse friends for their trouble."???


 




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