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OLC comment, MOP logging deactivated



 
 
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  #11  
Old May 23rd 20, 04:18 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kinsell
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Posts: 373
Default OLC comment, MOP logging deactivated

On 5/23/20 8:29 AM, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:
At 19:23 22 May 2020, Dave Springford wrote:
To expand upon Tim's note:

ENL = Engine Noise Level
MOP = Means of Propulsion

IGC does not allow ENL to be used for electric or Jet engines, they must
use MOP sensors.

ENL may be used for gas powered engines. This is not a new change for

the
IGC, but I think the OLC has just implemented the change in their

software.

Many FES owners have been using ENL for years, but it is my understanding
that this is no longer allowed by IGC as sufficient proof the FES was not
used.

Dave,

Can you point to a current reference for IGC only allowing MOP sensors for
FES please.

SC3C says:
11.2ENL figures –engine on
An ENL of over 700 is expected when the engine is running at climb power.
Over 900 is typical for a two-stroke engine, and over 700 for a
nose mounted 4-stroke. Values of 999 have been recorded with a
two-stroke engine runningat full power, and over 900 for a Forward Electric
System (FES) with the FR close behind it. These high ENLs are
produced for a significant time during a climb and can therefore be
attributed to engine running.

SC3B says:
1.4.2EngineRecordingSystems - General.
Enginerecording is by IGCENL and MOP systems that are designed to
differentiate between conditions of forward thrust from the engine system,
and gliding flight without the use of engine. The low frequency IGC
Environmental Noise Level (ENL) system uses a sensor inside the FR and is
most sensitive to acoustic noise between100and 200Hz. It was originally
designed to record the operation of two-strokepistonengines, but may also
record reasonable ENL numbers with Forward Electric Systems (FES) if the FR
is installed just behind the engine and its retractible propeller (subject
to testing to show this). Where the ENL system does not produce high
enough readings with certain types of engine an d FR installations, either
the FR location must be changed or an additional sensor under the MOP code
must be fitted so that three high MOP numbers are produced in each IGC file
fix line in addition to ENL. Difficult cases for Engine recording are in
1.4.2.2- 1.4.2.5 below, and more detailis in SC3Annex C (SC3C) Chapter 11,
and Chapter 5 of the FR Specification.

Which seems to be saying "Fit a MOP Sensor where ENL is not Satisfactory"
it does not seem to be mandating it in all cases.




Current OLC rules, dated Feb 23, say this:


" Flights, which are performed with motorized gliders, have to be
documented with a recording of the motor's operating time (ENL)..

For aircraft with too low noise level, for example all aircraft with a
front electric sustainer (FES), the MOP level must be recorded in
addition to above."


I just looked at a self-launching twin jet glider, its ENL values during
the launch were only about 100. Wonder if OLC is going to be enforcing
MOP for jets also?






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  #12  
Old May 23rd 20, 04:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Springford
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Posts: 305
Default OLC comment, MOP logging deactivated

Hi Tim,

Sorry, I paraphrased too briefly, but the net effect of the code is that FES typically doesn't meet the noise threshold and that MOP is therefore necessary, per your last statement.

As Eric asked above, will ENL "hear" an FES that is running at low enough power to double your L/D or reduce your sink rate in a thermal?

Anecdotal evidence suggests that it can not and some electric engine gliders have been seen assisting themselves with power that is not being recorded in an IGC file by ENL.

However, thanks to @kinsell for reading the OLC rules we now know why OLC is rejecting FES claims without MOP.

  #13  
Old May 23rd 20, 05:57 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tim Newport-Peace[_6_]
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Posts: 55
Default OLC comment, MOP logging deactivated

At 15:31 23 May 2020, Dave Springford wrote:
Hi Tim,

Sorry, I paraphrased too briefly, but the net effect of the code is that
FES typically doesn't meet the noise threshold and that MOP is therefore
necessary, per your last statement.

As Eric asked above, will ENL "hear" an FES that is running at low enough
power to double your L/D or reduce your sink rate in a thermal?

Anecdotal evidence suggests that it can not and some electric engine
gliders have been seen assisting themselves with power that is not being
recorded in an IGC file by ENL.

However, thanks to @kinsell for reading the OLC rules we now know why OLC
is rejecting FES claims without MOP.

I very much suspect that the ENL values with a FES are dependent on where
the recorder is mounted. If it is close to the engine then ENL may be
satisfactory, but if it is panel-mounted then maybe not so.

Good news for the two LX companies however as I believe they are the only
manufacturers of MOP boxes.


  #14  
Old May 24th 20, 03:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kinsell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 373
Default OLC comment, MOP logging deactivated

On 5/23/20 9:31 AM, Dave Springford wrote:
Hi Tim,

Sorry, I paraphrased too briefly, but the net effect of the code is that FES typically doesn't meet the noise threshold and that MOP is therefore necessary, per your last statement.

As Eric asked above, will ENL "hear" an FES that is running at low enough power to double your L/D or reduce your sink rate in a thermal?

Anecdotal evidence suggests that it can not and some electric engine gliders have been seen assisting themselves with power that is not being recorded in an IGC file by ENL.

However, thanks to @kinsell for reading the OLC rules we now know why OLC is rejecting FES claims without MOP.


And now, by some miracle, Andre is getting credit for his flight on the
21st. In fact double credit, as the flight was submitted twice. It's
easy to delete flights if you need to resubmit, but only within the two
day time limit.



  #15  
Old May 25th 20, 11:39 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tim Newport-Peace[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 55
Default OLC comment, MOP logging deactivated

At 14:14 24 May 2020, kinsell wrote:
On 5/23/20 9:31 AM, Dave Springford wrote:
Hi Tim,

Sorry, I paraphrased too briefly, but the net effect of the code is

that
FES typically doesn't meet the noise threshold and that MOP is therefore
necessary, per your last statement.

As Eric asked above, will ENL "hear" an FES that is running at low

enough
power to double your L/D or reduce your sink rate in a thermal?

Anecdotal evidence suggests that it can not and some electric engine

gliders have been seen assisting themselves with power that is not being
recorded in an IGC file by ENL.

However, thanks to @kinsell for reading the OLC rules we now know why

OLC
is rejecting FES claims without MOP.


And now, by some miracle, Andre is getting credit for his flight on the
21st. In fact double credit, as the flight was submitted twice. It's
easy to delete flights if you need to resubmit, but only within the two
day time limit.

I just love a Happy Ending...


  #16  
Old May 27th 20, 05:41 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kinsell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 373
Default OLC comment, MOP logging deactivated

On 5/25/20 4:39 AM, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:
At 14:14 24 May 2020, kinsell wrote:
On 5/23/20 9:31 AM, Dave Springford wrote:
Hi Tim,

Sorry, I paraphrased too briefly, but the net effect of the code is

that
FES typically doesn't meet the noise threshold and that MOP is therefore
necessary, per your last statement.

As Eric asked above, will ENL "hear" an FES that is running at low

enough
power to double your L/D or reduce your sink rate in a thermal?

Anecdotal evidence suggests that it can not and some electric engine

gliders have been seen assisting themselves with power that is not being
recorded in an IGC file by ENL.

However, thanks to @kinsell for reading the OLC rules we now know why

OLC
is rejecting FES claims without MOP.


And now, by some miracle, Andre is getting credit for his flight on the
21st. In fact double credit, as the flight was submitted twice. It's
easy to delete flights if you need to resubmit, but only within the two
day time limit.

I just love a Happy Ending...



Well they haven't changed the rules, so not clear just what the ending
is going to be. Maybe just another delay in enforcement.
  #17  
Old June 26th 20, 06:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 79
Default OLC comment, MOP logging deactivated

I flew with an FES and an LX9000 with regular ENL logging today, and I can confirm even on minimum power the FES is clearly visible on the trace ENL. It's electric, but it's far from silent, and louder than any cockpit source of noise.
 




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